THE BOB LUTZ INTERVIEW

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Unknown: Hello car folks, Jeff
Sterns, here, I had an

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opportunity to interview Bob
Lutz recently. He definitely

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needs no introduction as a car
guys car guy. However, the

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interview does give some
insights into the vehicle

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business, as well as into Bob's
personal life. Enjoy.

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Jeff Sterns connected through
cars, if they're big wigs, we'll

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have him on the show. And yes,
we'll talk about cars and

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everything else. Here he is now,
Jeff Sterns,

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Bob a, first of all, let me just
get my jitters out of the way.

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Oh, come on. We're not that
scary. Listen, I put on LinkedIn

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that I'm going to have an
opportunity to meet Bob Lutz. If

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you have any questions that
you'd like me to ask, please

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post them. And a number of
people came to me and said like,

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Is this a joke? Do you mean it?
He's my biggest hero. I was

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watching a video last night
about Mick Jagger doing what

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he's doing in a concert just in
the last few days and people

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talking about him. And that's
how I think about you. But I'm

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going to ask you if you remember
me.

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Um,

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to be honest, no, you are an
honorary Judge 99 2000 2001 at

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Pebble Beach. Concours
d'Elegance. Yeah, that's

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correct. I was a Bentley dealer.
I was there with Bentley,

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hospitality.

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And I said to my dad, and we
weren't carrying around, you

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know, our phones, our cameras
and our phones. I said, Dad,

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would you please take a picture
was 20th person in line with 20

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More behind me to try to get
some of those from you? I don't

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remember that. I was gonna say,
Don't you remember that moment?

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Wonderful to meet you. Of
course, we are introduced

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through our mutual friend,

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Warren Brown. I have something
special I want to share with

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you. And I have a mystery guest
that I want to bring on. And

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hopefully he'll come on here if
the timings right. Oh, I don't

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know if you recognize this guy.
Well, why? Hell yeah. I had the

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same gray hair in Russia. So I
ought to be recognizable. Yeah,

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well, we both have executive
hair.

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All right. My portion of this is
an introduction.

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When when I knew that Jeff was
going to interview you and you

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graciously accepted, I reached
out to our mutual friend,

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Vladimir Shcherbakov. What
former former Premier of the

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USSR, though, and he'll be happy
to tell you about that.

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And I asked him if he would give
some kind words to you. And he

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was he was over the moon in
doing that. I think because of

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the relationship you established
with him in Moscow and

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Kaliningrad both as car guys and
as leaders, and I think that

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there was a connection there. He
was so honored to do it.

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That he did it in Russian as
kind of like a formal, a formal

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approach, right? He he wanted to
say the right thing. So he had

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his interpreter, which you will
hear

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voiceover interpreting that for
him. You can see how he goes on

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about Bob Lutz and, and I think
that you'll get a big kick out

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of it. Especially if you're
smoking a cigar and remembering

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all the vodka and cigars that we
did when we were

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okay, so before we get to it, I
have a Bob Lutz war story that I

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have to tell. Okay.

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He he was invited to a cocktail
party when we were in

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Kaliningrad for the launch of
the Hummer.

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And there was about 50 guests
there some GM folk that had come

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over with Bob and and the off
the tour folks and he probably

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had a whole bunch of government
dignitaries come because Bob was

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there. And you know, about
halfway through halfway through

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the cocktail party, I can see
that Bob's not you know, he's he

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was gracious he he did his time.
So I said, Okay, I need to I

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need to give this an energy
boost. So I walked over to him

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and said, Hey, Bob, how would
you like to see the guy that

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engineered and helped design the
MiG? And his eyes got as big as

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saucers. Alexander Sorokin, if
you remember his name was the

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guy that did that and you spent
you spent the rest of the

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evening with him. So I think
that it ended up being a good

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cocktail party for you. Okay,
now, we're some of the field

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force guys in

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In his

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unit,

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the salespeople in the dealer
but they were all former MIG 29

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platelets from the from the
Soviet Air Force. So I had great

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conversations

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with fellow military pilots. I
could see that by the end of the

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evening before we got to the
vodka and cigars, Sherman coughs

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house that you were having a
great time. And Warren I heard

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everyone was right on time the
next day after that party in the

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lobby. Well, I can tell you this
another another quick Lutz thing

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as you're loading it. We drank
vodka and smoke cigars till very

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late in the morning. But being
the host I had to be up first.

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So I got up and Bob's already up
dressed button down collar tie.

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And he says to me, this is 630
in the morning after drinking

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vodka and smoking cigars all
night. He says to me first

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Causton and the other guys I
says Potter's still sleeping He

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says we'll get them we got to
get this show on the road

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this beautiful with that roll it
says hello everybody

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my name is bloody Marcia Paco

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I'm 75 years old

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38 years I've been in the auto
manufacturing industry of the

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Soviet Union and Russia caribou
bureaus and district Limbrick so

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that so that when you stop I
used to be first deputy prime

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Minister of the USSR

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So sir,

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also adjustment business and
after the collapse of the USSR I

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went to private business even
lower to deal with when you

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hear your voice when you wishes
to deal with with leachables law

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calm is Werbung lotsa with
industry Exactly. At that

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period, I was fortunate enough
to get personally acquainted

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with Bob Lutz, the true legend
of the global auto industry by

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Shropshire drew core and grown.

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Our common friend, Warren Brown
asked me to say a few words of

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introduction, Orchard Earth was
and I'm very glad to have this

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opportunity.

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Just because I would like to say
that Bob Lutz is a legendary

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engineer.

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Legendary manager,

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organised legendary organizer of
production and business.

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Coaching Hiroshi group decides
he's a very good friend in

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Australia, music and real man on
Eugene's americanas. He's the

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only American Khufu. Am I G 29.
fighter jet legally. The code

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master Yes, she was teachers
care America. He's a real

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classic American. Smart,
professional. Organized,

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courageous soccer open just
leaves Loba honest in words and

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actions. I believe this piece
will return to normal human

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relations or certainly useless
Americans significance

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especially if

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more people like Bob Lutz on the
American side is the royal good

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house and long life to you Bob.

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Do

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you have an open invitation to
visit after Todd

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was was list and not rookie you
will have an opportunity to fly

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other types of yet Russian
modern fighters fighting jets. I

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promise you

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like a solo long. Bob, I talked
to him afterwards. He was he was

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tickled pink to do this. Um, I
think that

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he he does six minutes worth so
I'll send Amy total six minutes.

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I don't have his email address
but I'm sure you do. So please

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be sure to thank him and tell
him I appreciate it very much.

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And

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you know, I keep very pleasant
memories of knowing him and wish

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him a long and happy life. I
will I will guarantee I will I

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will pass that along both in
email and by calling him So with

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that introduction which is a
little long

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winded. I wish you both a great
interview. Bob. It was nice to

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see you with that cigar. I'm
jealous. I didn't have mine.

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Okay, great interview. Thanks.
Thanks for letting me join.

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Thanks very much. Good to see
you looking well, too. How did

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that make you feel? I was
watching your fat. How did it

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make you feel for Warren to do
that behind your back? And glad

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to say what he said? Well,
obviously, I'm greatly honored.

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And it's, it's nice that

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you complete a 42 year career in
the automobile business and in

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the military. And basically,
you'll look back. And regardless

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of what company I worked for,

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I left with I can say no
enemies, I left with basically

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nothing but friends. So

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I feel extraordinarily blessed
that I met so many nice,

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interesting, valuable people in
my career. And of course, Vlad

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and Warren are two that stand
out particularly well, I tell

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ya, I just when I was getting
emotional over it, because it

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was so heartfelt, and what a
compliment. And you know, I know

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we want to remain humble, and we
want to talk about honor. But

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man Oh, man, I mean, just the,
to me, I was just feeling

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emotion.

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We, you know, we leave our
careers, or as we're 10 years

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out of whatever our last career,
one of my old bosses, who was a

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lieutenant colonel, who was
general manager in our

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dealership, said, you know, in
the car business, you It's like

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pulling your finger out of a
glass of water, the whole you

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leave, you know, waters, what do
you usually end up leaving?

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When, when you're gone? As far
as people remembering you are

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mattering? And you really honest
to god, I mean, you really do

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matter when I put that comment
up on LinkedIn that I was gonna

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meet with you. So many people
commented, and I've got it

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aggregated on certain things to
ask you, but I got so many

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private messages and phone
calls, that you may not even,

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you may not even realize it. And
you're originally Swiss born,

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went through Marines. And then
what GM Europe and BMW, right,

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right. That's the sequence.
Well, I went out with my 21 year

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old son who's working with me in
my business today, to pick

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something up for the office. And
I told him, I was gonna meet

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with you, and he couldn't
believe it, then he's a total

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car guy. And he said, How does a
guy go from military to getting

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into, you know, he was so
intrigued how you escalated. And

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I know that we only have so much
time. But for a young guy like

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him, do you? I mean, what can
you attribute it to? Was it?

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Well, I attribute it to a couple
of things. First of all, I was

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privileged to be born with good
genes, you know, with an

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intelligent, healthy father. And
an intelligent dynamic mother

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was also very attractive, and
they were both slim, and they

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both live to a ripe old age. So
I'm blessed with good genes. So

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as they say, you should pick
your parents with care. Because

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it's the number one factor in
your makeup, then

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I was a sufferer of what today
would be called ADD. In that in

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school, I only paid attention to
subjects that I liked, and

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completely zoned out in subjects
that I was less good at, like

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math, and history, which didn't
interest didn't interest me at

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all. So

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there was a really a question in
my father's mind, whether I'd

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ever be successful in life, and

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partly, his suggestion, but also
my orientation. I joined the

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Marine Corps, and what I would
credit, and I do in my books,

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whatever success I've had in
private life, I do credit the

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Marine Corps, because I think
the Marine Corps teaches you

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discipline, commitment, caring
for your troops, focus on the

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mission. And it is, and it's, I
think, the world's best

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leadership school. Now, I was
always a car guy, I didn't leave

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the Marine Corps and decided,
What business am I gonna get

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into? I always knew even when I
was a kid, and I was given these

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aptitude tests. They say, Well,
what do you want to be when you

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grow up and say, well, three
things I'd like to be when I

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grow up. One would be a military
fighter pilot. The second would

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be a

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He's driver. And the third
would, is that I'd like to be an

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automobile executive. And then
they say, well, those sound like

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great goals. But, you know,
you're gonna have to pick up

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your grades if you want to
attain any of that.

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And in fact,

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I attained all three, I think I
was a decent Marine, a jet

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attack fighter fighter and
attack aviator, although never

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tested in combat. But I think
with my training, I would have

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been okay, I was a moderately
successful race driver, and

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quite fast for somebody that
doesn't do it all the time. I

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just did occasionally when I had
access to a car, or something

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like that. And then the third
one, which where I really

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progressed beyond my own
expectations was being an

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executive in the car business.
And I thrived on that. And I

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found that a military
discipline, the focus on

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leadership, taking care of the
troops, delegating authority and

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responsibility. But driving the
team forward, in other words,

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deciding on the what, and
delegating much of the how, and

225
00:16:26,370 --> 00:16:29,910
then following up, make sure
that people don't slack off.

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Worked in the Marine Corps, and
it worked in private life. Well,

227
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:37,320
when when my son and I were
walking around, he was just so

228
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,470
curious, like me, and to go that
far. And then of course, you're

229
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:44,520
really a product guy. And it
isn't like you went to art

230
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:49,620
college, right? Do you remember
John Dinkle. So John Dinkle was

231
00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:55,860
a editor of road and track and
Car and Driver. When I put on

232
00:16:55,860 --> 00:17:01,350
the LinkedIn that I was going to
meet you, he said, Well, ask Bob

233
00:17:01,350 --> 00:17:04,110
Lutz if he's still a serial
killer. And he's always Mr. Pun,

234
00:17:04,620 --> 00:17:08,190
when he posted this, and he
actually hung on to it. And I'm

235
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sure you remember this.

236
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:17,520
Yeah, we that was a press
giveaway for the Dodge Durango

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00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:23,070
introduction. And boy, did we
did we ever hear from did we

238
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ever hear from the producer?

239
00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:29,160
Oh, yeah, they were sort of
trademark infringement and

240
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,060
everything. We said, Come on,
relax. We did a couple of 100

241
00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:37,770
boxes. We gave them away. It's
nothing serious. But the

242
00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:39,480
Chrysler legal department

243
00:17:40,590 --> 00:17:45,660
was summoned, and had to go into
hand to hand combat with the

244
00:17:45,660 --> 00:17:51,450
General Mills, people who felt
with something sacred had been

245
00:17:51,450 --> 00:17:53,970
violated. You've diminished the
brand.

246
00:17:56,190 --> 00:18:00,930
Now, another friend of mine, who
was a Ford exec, who's now with

247
00:18:00,930 --> 00:18:04,200
an automotive space analytics
company said that he read an

248
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,500
automotive news. He said, Oh my
God, if you get asked Bob about

249
00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:10,170
this, he says that a viper and
he's going by memory, he could

250
00:18:10,170 --> 00:18:13,710
not find it at a viper
introduction. You'd mentioned

251
00:18:13,890 --> 00:18:19,800
about the press the winner gets
a ride with in a viper. And the

252
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,610
loser gets a ride with you in a
helicopter. And apparently you

253
00:18:23,610 --> 00:18:24,510
had just wrecked one.

254
00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:31,650
Do you remember that? Yeah. So I
want to talk about your

255
00:18:31,650 --> 00:18:34,470
impressions because your course
your the product is our

256
00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:39,030
impressions about some things I
want to look into the future.

257
00:18:39,330 --> 00:18:42,000
You're definitely a recognized I
got notes are a recognized

258
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:46,710
expert in all areas of product
development. But according to

259
00:18:46,710 --> 00:18:49,320
Warren, and he said he learned
more about interior spending an

260
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,550
interior at an auto show with
you for half hour, 45 minutes

261
00:18:53,550 --> 00:18:58,020
than he knew in his career today
with you talking about it. But

262
00:18:58,260 --> 00:19:02,280
what do you think, right now,
about like, are the two best

263
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,570
gotta have vehicles? What are
what you know, what cars or

264
00:19:06,570 --> 00:19:12,330
trucks excite you today, if any?
Well, if any, is a good, a good

265
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:17,760
attendance to your question
because especially in a compact

266
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sport utilities, we're seeing a
great deal of sameness among

267
00:19:22,620 --> 00:19:27,780
brands. And if you're not close
enough to read the batch, it's

268
00:19:27,810 --> 00:19:31,350
tough to tell one from the
other. It's also become

269
00:19:31,620 --> 00:19:37,170
manifestly impossible to buy a
bad car. I mean, everybody has

270
00:19:37,170 --> 00:19:42,180
high levels of safety, great
noise, vibration, and harshness,

271
00:19:42,990 --> 00:19:49,050
decent styling the some of the
famous Japanese brands, perhaps,

272
00:19:49,530 --> 00:19:54,390
at this point on styling a
little weaker than Americans and

273
00:19:54,570 --> 00:19:57,780
some of the Europeans are a
little weak right now. But

274
00:19:57,780 --> 00:19:59,970
basically everybody produces no

275
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,620
Nice vehicles with good
interiors, everybody produces,

276
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,930
everybody offers Ralph the same
safety features. And it's no

277
00:20:09,930 --> 00:20:15,690
accident because all of these
features like lane departure

278
00:20:15,690 --> 00:20:16,800
warning and

279
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:22,949
intelligent mirrors and
etcetera, etcetera are all

280
00:20:23,549 --> 00:20:28,799
brought to you by two or three
global suppliers. And everybody

281
00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:33,899
gets the same stuff. So there's
a there's a good reason why cars

282
00:20:33,899 --> 00:20:37,859
have achieved a degree of
sameness. But if you asked me

283
00:20:37,859 --> 00:20:40,919
for some products that really
stand out,

284
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:48,150
after doing a lot of checking, I
just bought a Cadillac lyric

285
00:20:48,270 --> 00:20:54,120
sport. And he talked about
interiors, the interior is

286
00:20:54,210 --> 00:21:00,270
spectacular. And it's got a 325
mile range, which still does not

287
00:21:00,270 --> 00:21:04,080
make it suitable for long road
trips. And I'm not about to

288
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,160
stand in line for four or five
hours waiting my turn at a

289
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:13,020
charging station, which is I
think the thing that makes Evie

290
00:21:13,020 --> 00:21:14,160
still kind of a

291
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:19,980
local proposition when we get
when we get 600 mile batteries

292
00:21:19,980 --> 00:21:23,730
or 700 mile batteries, you know
that issue is gonna go away, but

293
00:21:23,730 --> 00:21:28,860
at present, it's still there.
But the Lyric is an absolutely

294
00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:35,280
outstanding vehicle. And in the
first quarter, it outsold all of

295
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,740
the German luxury EVs let's BMW,
Audi, Mercedes Benz and

296
00:21:40,740 --> 00:21:46,650
Volkswagen combined. So the
public is the public is

297
00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:47,670
accepting it

298
00:21:49,980 --> 00:21:53,400
in a big way. That's an
outstanding vehicle. Second,

299
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,910
there's no no doubt, Bob, from a
product standpoint, the Lyric is

300
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,670
outstanding. No question. But
I'm a little surprised to see

301
00:21:59,670 --> 00:22:04,080
you with electric with some of
your comments in the past Well,

302
00:22:06,330 --> 00:22:10,140
electric are at the beginning of
the revolution, you know, we've

303
00:22:10,140 --> 00:22:14,940
got 120 years of internal
combustion, it's near perfect.

304
00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:19,770
The fuel is if gasoline hadn't
been invented, we should invent

305
00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:25,170
it now. Because it's it has such
high energy density. But there's

306
00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:29,550
a lot of advantages to EVs,
which are not yet fully

307
00:22:29,550 --> 00:22:32,610
realized, because we have to
wait for battery technology,

308
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,140
which it will, which it will, I
mean, battery breakthroughs are

309
00:22:37,170 --> 00:22:42,690
on the horizon. And in two or
three years, we'll have at fact,

310
00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:48,750
lucid, has a 600 mile battery
today. Nobody knows about it,

311
00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:52,410
but it that's, that's
potentially a great sedan,

312
00:22:53,610 --> 00:22:57,540
another one of my favorites,
which is unique

313
00:22:59,310 --> 00:23:04,320
both in terms of what it
represents and how it sells and

314
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:12,030
what it does is the Chevrolet
Corvette with a long history and

315
00:23:12,030 --> 00:23:22,350
I have three I have a 2010, ZR
one, a 2015 06 and 2020 see a

316
00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:27,270
mid engine. And these cars are
fabulous. And you know that the

317
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:30,300
German companies and the
Italians they keep buying them

318
00:23:30,630 --> 00:23:34,290
and tearing them down because
they can't figure out how

319
00:23:34,290 --> 00:23:38,760
General Motors can make a
vehicle like that and sell it at

320
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,300
the price that we offer it and
still make money. It's still

321
00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:47,370
other than sport utilities and
pickup trucks. When I left GM,

322
00:23:47,670 --> 00:23:50,730
it was still on a per unit
basis, one of the most

323
00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:55,290
profitable vehicles in the GM
portfolio and I have no doubt

324
00:23:55,290 --> 00:24:00,780
that it still is the third one
that I really like again because

325
00:24:00,780 --> 00:24:09,390
of its uniqueness, comfort,
safety, spaciousness, all

326
00:24:09,390 --> 00:24:14,220
terrain capability and so forth,
is the GMC Yukon, which of

327
00:24:14,220 --> 00:24:19,500
course, is the same as the Chevy
Tahoe and the mechanically near

328
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:23,580
identical to the Tahoe, and the
Cadillac Escalade, and I have a

329
00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:28,800
a Yukon XL, which is the long
wheelbase version, which

330
00:24:29,910 --> 00:24:34,380
is equipped with supercruise. So
when I'm on the freeway, I punch

331
00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:38,400
in supercruise. I take my hands
off the wheel and my feet off

332
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,600
the pedals. I lean back and
relax and prepare a cigar and

333
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,530
smoke it and the car does all
the driving from Ann Arbor to

334
00:24:46,530 --> 00:24:49,590
Chicago, which is pretty amazing
because

335
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:55,470
other companies offer similar
systems but they're not as well

336
00:24:55,470 --> 00:25:00,000
developed. And whenever there's
a comparison test of

337
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,160
automated driving systems, the
GM supercruise system always

338
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,040
comes out on top. And how about
your trust factor? I mean,

339
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:09,930
you're telling me you're leaning
back having a cigar. So I'm

340
00:25:09,930 --> 00:25:12,690
assuming you have some trust.
But have you experienced any

341
00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:15,240
close call where like you think
I better paid while I'm

342
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,370
relaxing, you better pay
attention to the autonomous

343
00:25:17,370 --> 00:25:20,640
drive. The unique thing about
the GM system is I don't know

344
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,630
how many around the road to
today, but probably since it's

345
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:29,670
been offered for the last five
years, probably close to 100,000

346
00:25:30,210 --> 00:25:34,230
GM supercruise vehicles on the
road today. And to my knowledge.

347
00:25:36,420 --> 00:25:40,500
Ford had offers a similar
system, I think they've had one

348
00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:46,650
or two instances of people
reporting it didn't prevent an

349
00:25:46,650 --> 00:25:50,430
accident or it caused an
accident or something. There is

350
00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:55,710
not I don't think there has ever
been a single reported incident

351
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:02,730
on the GM supercruise system. It
is 100%. bulletproof. That's a

352
00:26:02,730 --> 00:26:06,690
big statement. And you're going
back to Corvette, you're talking

353
00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:09,450
about Corvette, and this is just
my memory. So if I'm off, we'll

354
00:26:09,450 --> 00:26:12,630
edit it out. But you talked
about, I believe, Corvette

355
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:17,610
tising or, you know, putting a
Corvette in every line of

356
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,570
General Motors. Am I right or
wrong about? No, that's that's

357
00:26:21,570 --> 00:26:26,970
wrong. But the but the thought
the thought is correct. It just

358
00:26:26,970 --> 00:26:27,510
like

359
00:26:28,590 --> 00:26:34,230
Ford decided Mustang was a brand
that could be expanded as a sub

360
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:38,160
brand. So you've got the Mustang
Mach E, which although

361
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:43,410
unprofitable for Ford, but it's
a pretty big hit in the Eevee.

362
00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:45,180
Community sells well.

363
00:26:46,290 --> 00:26:53,430
I think the Corvette Corvette
could be made into a sub brand

364
00:26:54,960 --> 00:27:00,450
and position similar to Porsche.
And I don't think, you know, a

365
00:27:00,450 --> 00:27:04,950
Panamera for door would be a
particularly good idea. But

366
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:12,270
certainly a Cayenne type sport
utility. Wood could be made very

367
00:27:12,270 --> 00:27:17,310
Corvette like, and could be a
brilliant seller. Interesting.

368
00:27:17,370 --> 00:27:22,260
And does that bother you at all?
And I'm not trying to be a smart

369
00:27:22,260 --> 00:27:25,110
aleck. But you know, I was
running a Cadillac store. When

370
00:27:25,110 --> 00:27:28,200
you talked about Cadillac, we'll
never have an SUV. Yeah.

371
00:27:29,790 --> 00:27:31,020
In the old days,

372
00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:35,460
when Cadillac announced that
they were going to do the

373
00:27:35,460 --> 00:27:39,210
Escalade, I thought that was in
the, you know, this is like 25

374
00:27:39,210 --> 00:27:43,530
years ago, I thought it was a
huge mistake, gonna damage the

375
00:27:43,530 --> 00:27:47,490
brand, at cetera, et cetera. And
now it's the centerpiece of the

376
00:27:47,490 --> 00:27:51,420
brand. And I thought the same
thing about

377
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:58,080
to a lesser degree, when Porsche
did the Cayenne, and that today

378
00:27:58,110 --> 00:28:02,220
is the core of that Brett well
liked, say the 911 is the

379
00:28:02,220 --> 00:28:07,560
symbolic center, the brand like
Wrangler is the symbolic center

380
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,540
of the Jeep brand. But the
Cayenne has been a huge success.

381
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:18,300
And the Lamborghini Urus is
another huge success. And

382
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:21,840
Ferrari is coming out with a
sport utility. And that will be

383
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,880
a huge success, because let's
face it,

384
00:28:24,930 --> 00:28:30,270
many people want the brand. They
want the performance, but they

385
00:28:30,270 --> 00:28:34,080
want the convenience of a sport
utility. They need some kind of

386
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,930
utility, you say you, you don't
have like an emotional issue.

387
00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:38,610
And you mentioned Corvette SUV.

388
00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:44,220
You're okay. If the market wants
it. I'm okay. As long as it's

389
00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:49,980
done, right? And isn't a variant
off of some other General Motors

390
00:28:49,980 --> 00:28:55,500
SUV? It would have to be
uniquely Corvette in its

391
00:28:55,500 --> 00:29:00,510
character, its appearance, and
its technology, and it would

392
00:29:00,510 --> 00:29:05,610
have to offer absolutely earth
shattering performance. Okay,

393
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,240
got it. So going back, we're
talking about the gotta have,

394
00:29:09,630 --> 00:29:13,170
and Warren helped me with some
of these questions. So Warren

395
00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:17,190
was extremely interested in us
having a good conversation here.

396
00:29:17,190 --> 00:29:19,380
So I want you to know behind
your back, there's a guy that

397
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:21,870
cares a lot about you and your
reputation.

398
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,700
What about what you think is
going wrong with trends today?

399
00:29:27,060 --> 00:29:29,850
Well, I don't think it's
necessarily a trend going in the

400
00:29:29,850 --> 00:29:32,190
wrong direction. But I do think

401
00:29:35,610 --> 00:29:38,400
car companies should try harder

402
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:44,160
to produce unique products that
don't look like everybody

403
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,480
else's. I think that's a
mistake, because the minute your

404
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:49,140
product

405
00:29:50,370 --> 00:29:54,480
becomes interchangeable with
everybody else's product. Now

406
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,780
you're competing on brand brand
value, which which is

407
00:29:57,780 --> 00:29:59,790
legitimate. You learn that over
time.

408
00:30:00,450 --> 00:30:04,710
or you're competing on price
becomes a disaster. Right?

409
00:30:04,710 --> 00:30:07,800
That's exactly right. So I think
you said it because you said of

410
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:12,270
gasoline came out today, with
the energy units, it would be

411
00:30:12,270 --> 00:30:15,870
the way to go. And I and I know
you got the lyric. But in

412
00:30:15,870 --> 00:30:20,850
general, are you gas hybrid or
electric? I'm for whatever is a

413
00:30:20,850 --> 00:30:25,140
great vehicle. And I think, as I
said, to me,

414
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,210
electric vehicles have become
politicized, you know, the,

415
00:30:31,770 --> 00:30:37,110
the climate change fanatics, and
the Save the earthers, and the

416
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:41,670
left wing of the Democratic
Party, etc, etc, are all in on

417
00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:46,470
electrics. And conservatives
have taken a hardcore position.

418
00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:49,890
Like, it's almost become like
the Second Amendment, you know,

419
00:30:49,890 --> 00:30:54,180
nobody's going to take my gas
powered car away from me. And

420
00:30:54,210 --> 00:30:59,430
that's ridiculous. It's not a
political issue. The mistake the

421
00:30:59,430 --> 00:31:04,080
government, governments around
the world made, is trying to

422
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:08,610
force the technology faster than
the consumer was willing to

423
00:31:08,610 --> 00:31:13,710
adopt it at faster than the
technology made the stuff really

424
00:31:13,710 --> 00:31:14,160
good.

425
00:31:15,750 --> 00:31:22,620
So we're not gonna have like, an
overnight switch into electrics,

426
00:31:22,620 --> 00:31:26,430
which every the media three
years ago thought was gonna

427
00:31:26,430 --> 00:31:29,310
happen, you know, everybody's
next vehicle was going to be

428
00:31:29,310 --> 00:31:32,520
electric. Well, even Mercedes
said, after a date, I think 24

429
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,880
Or five that we are going to
have no more gas. But well, you

430
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,870
know, GM has said the same
thing, but as kind of

431
00:31:39,870 --> 00:31:42,810
backpedaled on it a little bit,
which is, which is smart.

432
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:48,750
Because you've finally you
cannot violate the market, the

433
00:31:48,750 --> 00:31:53,790
market is the market, and
electric vehicle will gradually

434
00:31:53,790 --> 00:31:59,640
increase their percentages. And
in another 10 years time, we may

435
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:06,870
see 25% of the market electric
in 30 years time, it may be 50%.

436
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,550
But it's gonna be a gradual
transition. Now. Will it

437
00:32:11,550 --> 00:32:17,790
happened? I believe absolutely,
because in so many ways, other

438
00:32:17,790 --> 00:32:23,670
than the range issue. But in so
many ways, electric vehicles are

439
00:32:23,670 --> 00:32:29,100
simply vastly superior to
gasoline, they're slick, they're

440
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:34,620
silent, they have a lot fewer
moving parts. Things like brakes

441
00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:40,230
don't deteriorate, because the
braking is mostly regenerative

442
00:32:40,380 --> 00:32:41,070
forth.

443
00:32:42,780 --> 00:32:43,290
And

444
00:32:45,030 --> 00:32:49,740
wait right now, from a co2
standpoint, this is this is the

445
00:32:49,740 --> 00:32:50,790
ridiculous thing.

446
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,280
They do not. I keep trying to
explain this to the climate

447
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,440
fanatics, they don't save any
co2, because

448
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:09,690
85% of America's electric power
is generated by fossil fuel. So,

449
00:33:10,110 --> 00:33:16,830
whether the co2 is created at
the energy production plant, or

450
00:33:16,830 --> 00:33:22,590
in the in the, in the, in the
gasoline engine, at the tailpipe

451
00:33:22,860 --> 00:33:30,900
it, the planet doesn't care, co2
is the is co2. Now, at some

452
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:36,780
point, we'll have clean nuclear
energy. And then with if we

453
00:33:36,780 --> 00:33:42,360
don't have to burn fossil fuel
to charge our electric vehicles,

454
00:33:42,660 --> 00:33:47,520
then I will buy the argument
that they produce less co2. And

455
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,790
what about the diesel equipment
mining the materials needed for

456
00:33:50,790 --> 00:33:51,390
the batteries?

457
00:33:52,770 --> 00:33:57,660
The diesel equipment used for
mining the metals.

458
00:33:59,010 --> 00:34:03,570
I mean, it depends how far up
the train you go. But even if

459
00:34:03,570 --> 00:34:06,150
you go no further than power
generation,

460
00:34:07,500 --> 00:34:12,240
it's then you got transmission
losses, because the power has to

461
00:34:12,240 --> 00:34:16,020
be set out. So there's a certain
amount of loss, then there's a

462
00:34:16,020 --> 00:34:21,360
certain amount of losses when it
goes from your home power outlet

463
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:25,500
into the electric vehicle. So at
the end of the day,

464
00:34:27,750 --> 00:34:31,620
you know, I've never seen a
wheeled well to wheels

465
00:34:31,620 --> 00:34:37,140
comparison, but the like fuel
cells, fuel cells are touted to

466
00:34:37,140 --> 00:34:42,750
be absolutely zero emissions.
All it comes out of the tailpipe

467
00:34:43,110 --> 00:34:47,610
is water vapor, et cetera, et
cetera. But they keep forgetting

468
00:34:47,610 --> 00:34:52,800
that hydrogen does not exist. In
a raw state. It's got to be

469
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,630
created out of something. So
separating the hydrogen from

470
00:34:57,630 --> 00:34:59,970
whatever it's attached to. Rick

471
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,090
requires Guess what? Energy and

472
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:09,690
taking one form and creating
another chemical form requires

473
00:35:09,690 --> 00:35:13,800
energy. And that basically
requires creation of co2.

474
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:20,460
Secondly, fuel cell vehicles
need the hydrogen compressed to

475
00:35:20,460 --> 00:35:26,610
10,000 psi, what where does the
power come from, to compress all

476
00:35:26,610 --> 00:35:31,860
that hydrogen. So, General
Motors, we actually did a well

477
00:35:31,860 --> 00:35:37,530
to wheels analysis of all of the
fossil fuels and energy that are

478
00:35:37,530 --> 00:35:43,410
required to go into a fuel cell,
and then did the miles per

479
00:35:43,410 --> 00:35:49,320
gallon equivalent, and it comes
for fuel cells. Best case, it

480
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,760
comes out to about 65 miles per
gallon. Well, you know, that's,

481
00:35:53,790 --> 00:35:59,850
that's a long way from zero. And
an even so I think the 65 miles

482
00:35:59,850 --> 00:36:06,750
per gallon was calculated by the
rabid fuel cell fanatics within

483
00:36:06,750 --> 00:36:12,300
General Motors, who, by the way,
led us down a garden path of

484
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:17,670
millions of fuel cell GM
vehicles on the road by 2010.

485
00:36:18,090 --> 00:36:22,380
Which you know, manifestly never
happened, for good reasons. And

486
00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:26,760
then fuel cells require all
kinds of rare minerals like

487
00:36:26,790 --> 00:36:32,940
palladium and platinum, and so
forth. I mean, fuel cells, fuel

488
00:36:32,940 --> 00:36:36,990
cells that really down on
battery electric vehicles I'm

489
00:36:36,990 --> 00:36:44,100
high on. But we've got to get
the battery energy density up to

490
00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:49,440
where we have reliable,
affordable, at least 600 mile

491
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:55,320
batteries. And charging stations
have to be more plentiful, more

492
00:36:55,320 --> 00:37:00,900
reliable, and word and charging
times. With an internal

493
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:06,150
combustion engine, you can put
350 miles into the tank and five

494
00:37:06,150 --> 00:37:12,090
minutes. Even with Eevee fast
charging, you can do maybe 80

495
00:37:12,090 --> 00:37:18,060
miles in 20 minutes. That's with
today's fast chargers. And

496
00:37:19,620 --> 00:37:24,900
talking to people who own
reviens and Tesla's when they

497
00:37:24,930 --> 00:37:28,950
get up to a charging station,
they're usually fourth or fifth

498
00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:32,820
in line. And they have to wait
for everybody else to get their

499
00:37:32,820 --> 00:37:36,720
80 miles. And I'm not going to
sit there at some charging

500
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:41,280
station for hours and hours,
waiting until it's my turn. And

501
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:45,780
then in my 20 minutes, I get my
80 miles, that that just makes

502
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:49,380
no sense for most people, and
they're quite right. I think

503
00:37:49,380 --> 00:37:53,040
some people though, will get
rich filming the arguments.

504
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,530
Who's next in line when there's
five and

505
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,750
well, it's been done, it's been
done. And my friends who have

506
00:38:00,750 --> 00:38:05,640
waited in charge in line say
that the atmosphere gets pretty

507
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,540
thoroughly. And we're watching
everybody's watching the other

508
00:38:09,540 --> 00:38:13,320
guy's car and saying, you got
your 80 Miles get out of here.

509
00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:17,040
Here we have reminds me of
watching at a boat ramp with the

510
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:18,930
husbands and wives yelling at
each other, right?

511
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:25,020
So freaking gotta have it or
forget it. What about the Bronco

512
00:38:25,290 --> 00:38:31,860
from a design smash hit smash
hit an extremely smart piece of

513
00:38:32,190 --> 00:38:36,960
product planning on the on the
part of Ford and it is it's the

514
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:43,260
usual Ford Motor Company method
of doing the design to where it

515
00:38:43,260 --> 00:38:47,820
mimics something much more
prestigious. You know, they did

516
00:38:47,820 --> 00:38:51,930
that with Lincoln, they adopted
what can only be described as a

517
00:38:51,930 --> 00:38:53,040
Bentley front end.

518
00:38:55,380 --> 00:38:59,910
And when when I worked for Ford,
when we did a new sedan or

519
00:38:59,910 --> 00:39:04,230
something there was always
something more prestigious in

520
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:08,130
this design studio and the
stylists were told make it look

521
00:39:08,130 --> 00:39:12,600
like that not exactly like that,
but make it work and so forth at

522
00:39:13,350 --> 00:39:18,870
the Bronco is clearly I admit
there's a lot of heritage of the

523
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:24,210
old little Bronco, the Bronco,
the original tiny little Bronco

524
00:39:24,210 --> 00:39:30,300
it does look a lot like that.
But mainly it looks like a Range

525
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:34,920
Rover Defender which you know
sells for close to quite close

526
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:39,810
to twice the price and a lot of
times when I see a Bronco for

527
00:39:39,810 --> 00:39:45,060
door with the right colors and
the right trims. I have to think

528
00:39:45,090 --> 00:39:49,230
oh I haven't seen a defender in
a little while and then I look

529
00:39:49,230 --> 00:39:51,390
at it's a bronco. And but

530
00:39:52,590 --> 00:39:57,990
they they really spent wisely on
that they did short wheelbase,

531
00:39:57,990 --> 00:39:59,970
long wheelbase hard cop saw

532
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:05,340
Stop, semi soft up removable
doors, non removable doors, wide

533
00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:09,660
track narrow track, big wheels,
narrow wheels, I mean, they

534
00:40:09,660 --> 00:40:15,420
created a whole portfolio of
vehicles to where you can

535
00:40:15,420 --> 00:40:20,520
customize that thing to exactly
what you want and it's seriously

536
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,830
hurting Jeep of a Jeep had that
Jeep had that market all to

537
00:40:25,830 --> 00:40:31,230
themselves. And along comes the
Bronco and it has done serious

538
00:40:31,230 --> 00:40:37,470
damage. So that's a brilliant
example of doing something new

539
00:40:37,470 --> 00:40:39,780
and different and

540
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:46,350
doing a brilliant job at
creating it. So as a former GM

541
00:40:46,350 --> 00:40:50,940
guy and GM loyalist, I admit,
but

542
00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:55,440
it's a shame that GM didn't we
were on the way to doing it with

543
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:55,950
Hummer

544
00:40:57,090 --> 00:41:01,290
because we were going to create
the so called H three, which was

545
00:41:01,290 --> 00:41:05,130
going to be about the size of
the Bronco, many of the

546
00:41:05,130 --> 00:41:08,160
characteristics of the Bronco
but it was going to be a Hummer.

547
00:41:08,460 --> 00:41:11,940
So we were on our way, but
unfortunately, Chapter

548
00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:15,900
eliminator Vien and we had to
drop the brand. What about model

549
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:24,000
Y Tesla? Tesla's? Well, I think
Tesla is a great car.

550
00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:29,310
I sometimes disagree with Elon
Musk on his business philosophy.

551
00:41:29,940 --> 00:41:35,370
And I, lately they've been see
sawing back and forth. Will

552
00:41:35,370 --> 00:41:38,910
there be a model two? No, there
won't be a model two are going

553
00:41:38,910 --> 00:41:42,510
to Robo taxis. Oh, no, wait a
minute, we're going to do us a

554
00:41:42,510 --> 00:41:46,830
series of affordable cars. And I
think what what's happened

555
00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:53,370
is that everybody has discovered
that Tesla is not a technology

556
00:41:53,370 --> 00:41:59,070
company. And the stock is not a
technology stock. Tesla is an

557
00:41:59,070 --> 00:42:03,480
automobile company. And they
have to refresh their vehicles,

558
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:08,430
just like everybody else. And
the Model S which is, I think, a

559
00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:12,300
terrific car, and still one of
the best looking sedans on the

560
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:16,770
road. What about the why? The
why I didn't like it at first,

561
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:17,370
but

562
00:42:18,780 --> 00:42:23,220
it's it was I think, last year
or in 2022, it was the world's

563
00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:26,490
best selling vehicle. Well, you
mentioned you know, Tesla, not a

564
00:42:26,490 --> 00:42:30,150
technology stock, but man Oh,
man. How about the market cap?

565
00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:34,950
Well, you know, it's ridiculous.
There's no justification doesn't

566
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:40,710
make sense at all. How about
Toyota crown? Well, I, I kind of

567
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:42,360
like some of their newer stuff.

568
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,610
They've finally discovered or
rediscovered the fact that

569
00:42:47,610 --> 00:42:48,900
design matters.

570
00:42:50,010 --> 00:42:55,230
And the new Prius for instance,
is finally finally

571
00:42:56,550 --> 00:43:00,120
apparently, from all reports
while it might go up Motor Trend

572
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,630
Car of the Year, which means
something, so it must drive.

573
00:43:03,630 --> 00:43:06,420
Well, I haven't driven one, but
it's good looking. It's not

574
00:43:06,420 --> 00:43:09,960
nerdy. No, it's finally not a
dork mobiel.

575
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,280
Folks, if you are a prior body
Prius driver, I'm sorry, Bob

576
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,640
blood said it was a dark mobiel
I'm not the only one that term

577
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,930
comes from Elon Musk. That's why
he decided to do the Roadster

578
00:43:24,930 --> 00:43:27,240
initially because he was

579
00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:33,180
intrigued with the idea of
electric drive. And he saw

580
00:43:33,180 --> 00:43:37,140
everybody buying these Toyota
Priuses or I don't know whether

581
00:43:37,140 --> 00:43:42,360
the plural is priests Priuses or
pre AI. If you're wanting

582
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:43,590
student is pre AI

583
00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:48,300
buddies. Look at those dork
mobiles. We're gonna get we're

584
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:52,800
gonna do something electric that
attracts automotive fans. How

585
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,030
about cybertruck?

586
00:43:55,260 --> 00:43:55,800
Well,

587
00:43:58,050 --> 00:44:02,190
I think that was a colossal
mistake. It was a good example

588
00:44:02,190 --> 00:44:04,350
of doing something that looks
different.

589
00:44:05,460 --> 00:44:10,860
But they could have made it look
that way. Without going to all

590
00:44:10,860 --> 00:44:19,110
of the pain of doing flat panel,
stainless steel, bulletproof and

591
00:44:19,110 --> 00:44:23,460
all of that stuff they just
could have. And the reason they

592
00:44:23,460 --> 00:44:26,130
have so much trouble fabricating
it is because

593
00:44:27,330 --> 00:44:31,740
everybody in the car industry
knows. And I'm sure somebody,

594
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,990
many people told Elon and he was
not in a listening mode, which

595
00:44:36,990 --> 00:44:41,070
is fairly typical of him and
usually pays off for him but

596
00:44:41,070 --> 00:44:45,780
sometimes it doesn't. I'm sure
everybody told him to properly

597
00:44:45,780 --> 00:44:50,910
build the body, automotive body
and get decent stampings that

598
00:44:50,910 --> 00:44:56,100
can be handled and welded
properly. You must introduce a

599
00:44:56,100 --> 00:44:59,970
little bit of crown to the
surfaces they

600
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,510
could have done some crown in
those surfaces a little bit in

601
00:45:03,510 --> 00:45:06,960
the roof a little bit in the
sides, a little bit in the hood,

602
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,460
I had the crown could have been
so slight, that it would be hard

603
00:45:11,460 --> 00:45:14,970
for people to notice. But then
they wouldn't have all these

604
00:45:14,970 --> 00:45:19,050
horrible issues that they've got
in building the thing. And I'm

605
00:45:19,050 --> 00:45:22,980
sure it's a huge money loser.
It's way heavier than it has to

606
00:45:22,980 --> 00:45:23,370
be.

607
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,410
I know they still have a lot of
advance orders may be

608
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:33,060
ultimately, if they can get the
manufacturing issues solved,

609
00:45:33,060 --> 00:45:38,550
which is a big F, it might be a
hit. But it will never displace

610
00:45:39,390 --> 00:45:45,270
the products of RAM, GMC,
Chevrolet and Ford. It'll be a

611
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:50,460
different buyer. It'll be a
Tesla fan. Who wants a truck?

612
00:45:50,670 --> 00:45:54,840
Not a truck buyer who wants a
Tesla? Maybe Elon, you know,

613
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:59,280
when he doesn't always listen.
Maybe he was going back to some

614
00:45:59,310 --> 00:46:02,040
some old line about I don't
know, I heard something about

615
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,640
often wrong. never in doubt
somebody once said, Well, yeah,

616
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:10,590
well, that. I mean, if you're
going to be a leader, having a

617
00:46:10,590 --> 00:46:16,410
degree of self confidence, and
being relatively firm in your

618
00:46:16,410 --> 00:46:20,040
opinions, is a good thing. If
you don't have

619
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:28,170
a really firm belief in what
you're doing is right. You can't

620
00:46:28,170 --> 00:46:30,930
convince others to follow you.
But

621
00:46:33,090 --> 00:46:36,990
I think most people, myself
included, there's always this

622
00:46:36,990 --> 00:46:40,710
tiny little voice in the back of
your back of your head. What if

623
00:46:40,710 --> 00:46:43,680
I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong?
What if I'm wrong? And that

624
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:48,900
little voice gets you to listen
to people? And thank God, you

625
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:53,010
know, many times in my career,
I've absolutely wanted

626
00:46:53,010 --> 00:46:58,620
something. And my guy said, Bob,
look, don't do this. It's not

627
00:46:58,620 --> 00:47:04,680
gonna work at or we can't build
it. And I push back a lot and

628
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:09,060
say, Yeah, well, you guys are
just negative, etc, etc. And

629
00:47:09,060 --> 00:47:13,140
they'd come back and say, Bob,
listen, we gotta tell you. One

630
00:47:13,140 --> 00:47:16,770
more, one more presentation,
we'll take it down to the shops.

631
00:47:17,130 --> 00:47:21,150
And we'll show you the reasons
why we can't do and then finally

632
00:47:21,150 --> 00:47:27,180
and say, Okay, I got it. And, by
the way, if you run into that

633
00:47:27,180 --> 00:47:28,440
much hostility,

634
00:47:30,570 --> 00:47:35,790
it probably isn't going to work.
Because the people at that

635
00:47:35,790 --> 00:47:39,990
point, if you do a forced job
and say, I don't care what you

636
00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:46,080
guys say, I hereby ordain that
you do it. They're gonna go into

637
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:49,830
malicious obedience. And you'll
never get a decent product.

638
00:47:50,010 --> 00:47:52,350
Right? But you'd mentioned when
you get hostility like that, but

639
00:47:52,350 --> 00:47:56,190
I think it's, you're really just
talking about resistance. And

640
00:47:56,220 --> 00:47:59,520
you know, it's not necessarily
hostile yet. But I'm always a

641
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,940
big fan and student of
leadership, not management, you

642
00:48:02,940 --> 00:48:07,650
know, leadership. And the story
you just told was actually a

643
00:48:07,650 --> 00:48:09,240
little bit surprising to me.

644
00:48:10,590 --> 00:48:13,050
Because you got a big persona,
he got a big personality, you

645
00:48:13,050 --> 00:48:17,370
got a big reputation. And what
you just said, tells me that you

646
00:48:17,370 --> 00:48:20,220
created an environment that made
it safe for people to give you

647
00:48:20,220 --> 00:48:23,310
some rules. That was that was
another thing I learned in the

648
00:48:23,310 --> 00:48:28,530
Marine Corps. And it's in Marine
Corps. leadership style

649
00:48:28,530 --> 00:48:32,940
principles in that is that you
adapt your leadership style to

650
00:48:32,940 --> 00:48:38,880
the situation at hand. And when
time permits, you listen to your

651
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:43,260
subordinates. That means for a
second lieutenant, he listens to

652
00:48:43,260 --> 00:48:47,070
the sergeants and corporals, who
have probably been in the

653
00:48:47,070 --> 00:48:50,940
infantry a hell of a lot longer
than a freshly minted second

654
00:48:50,940 --> 00:48:54,510
lieutenant. When you're a
colonel, you listen to

655
00:48:54,510 --> 00:48:58,140
lieutenants, and Sergeant
Majors. And if you go to

656
00:48:59,310 --> 00:49:03,510
a Marine Corps weapons
demonstration, the presentations

657
00:49:03,870 --> 00:49:07,380
are not like in the movies where
there's a two star general

658
00:49:08,070 --> 00:49:12,360
standing at the with the maps
and with the pointer. In the

659
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:17,580
Marine Corps. Its sergeants and
Sergeants Major who gives the

660
00:49:17,580 --> 00:49:22,410
presentation so the Marine Corps
strongly believes in listening

661
00:49:22,410 --> 00:49:29,040
to the troops. The only time you
adopt a more draconian and more

662
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:35,460
absolutist leadership style is
in an emergency situation where

663
00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:39,570
there is either no time for
discussion, or the situation is

664
00:49:39,570 --> 00:49:44,880
so dire, that the troops are
reluctant to take the measures

665
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,210
that you're going to ask them to
take. And then you have to say,

666
00:49:48,210 --> 00:49:52,980
look, we're in a tough
situation. We can't argue this.

667
00:49:53,310 --> 00:49:58,290
We need everybody to cut their
budgets by 20% I know it's

668
00:49:58,290 --> 00:49:59,970
awful. I know you're gonna have
to get

669
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,510
Get rid of people. I know we're
gonna have to delay programs.

670
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:08,700
But that's the situation we're
in. And I always tried to. I

671
00:50:08,700 --> 00:50:14,490
never said, What I always
avoided, was once when they

672
00:50:14,490 --> 00:50:19,290
said, Well, why do we have to do
this? I never said, because I

673
00:50:19,290 --> 00:50:25,020
say so. That's, that's the sign
of a weak leader. A good leader

674
00:50:25,380 --> 00:50:30,630
is capable of explaining the
necessity to the people that are

675
00:50:30,630 --> 00:50:35,010
being asked to accomplish the
task. And I always used I always

676
00:50:35,010 --> 00:50:41,010
used to the extent possible. I
always used humor. But one GM

677
00:50:41,010 --> 00:50:46,410
story when I got the GM, one of
my in 2002 1001.

678
00:50:48,240 --> 00:50:50,040
On my return at age 70,

679
00:50:52,140 --> 00:50:56,280
I was at a first meeting of all
my direct reports, and it were

680
00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:02,550
about 20 people in the room. And
I started, you know, just batter

681
00:51:02,610 --> 00:51:02,970
and

682
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,910
telling them what I thought was
wrong with GM products. And I

683
00:51:08,910 --> 00:51:12,900
saw everybody hunched over
pieces of paper, scribbling

684
00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:16,050
furiously. So what are you? What
are you What are you people

685
00:51:16,050 --> 00:51:17,400
doing? So well.

686
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,660
You're a vice chairman, and
you're addressing us, and you're

687
00:51:21,660 --> 00:51:25,770
giving us wisdom from your
career. And we're taking notes.

688
00:51:26,070 --> 00:51:31,710
And I said, Guys, listen, you
don't know me very well. But I

689
00:51:31,710 --> 00:51:38,880
tend to run off at the mouth.
I'm what is technically known as

690
00:51:39,990 --> 00:51:44,760
given to verbosity. And I say a
lot of things that don't make

691
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,200
any sense. And what I do is I
try to trigger responses in

692
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:54,540
people. And I say a lot of
controversial things, and I want

693
00:51:54,540 --> 00:51:59,970
to hear pushback. And you people
should never be worried about

694
00:52:00,270 --> 00:52:03,270
pushing back. The only thing I

695
00:52:04,350 --> 00:52:05,340
just one rule.

696
00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:12,360
Any one of you at any time, in
any meeting, can say, Excuse me,

697
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:19,320
sir, you're full of sh i t. I
would just ask you to say and

698
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,590
this got a big laugh, I'd say
you have to preface it with the

699
00:52:22,590 --> 00:52:26,190
words. With all due respect,
sir, you are.

700
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,320
And everybody laughed. And you
know, what, two or three weeks

701
00:52:31,350 --> 00:52:35,580
weeks later, we I think we were
having an argument about fake

702
00:52:35,580 --> 00:52:39,330
wood versus real wood and cars.
And can the cars can the

703
00:52:39,330 --> 00:52:43,470
consumer tell the difference?
Because the cost difference is

704
00:52:43,470 --> 00:52:46,590
like 10 to one. And I was as

705
00:52:48,270 --> 00:52:52,410
fake wood today looks better
than real wood in most

706
00:52:52,410 --> 00:52:54,450
applications. And

707
00:52:56,130 --> 00:52:59,790
that's when one guy finally
said, Okay, I'm gonna test this.

708
00:53:00,420 --> 00:53:05,070
This with all due respect, sir,
you are And everybody

709
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:11,460
looked horrified to see how I
was going to respond. I said,

710
00:53:11,460 --> 00:53:16,230
Thank you, sir. For breaking the
ice. I've been waiting patiently

711
00:53:16,410 --> 00:53:21,930
for somebody to do that. Now.
Tell me why. And once we got,

712
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,520
once everybody understood that
nobody was going to be punished.

713
00:53:27,090 --> 00:53:32,040
We had meetings that sounded
like verbal, free for alls, we

714
00:53:32,550 --> 00:53:41,550
Schouten. And, I mean, we insult
each other. And I, I accepted as

715
00:53:41,550 --> 00:53:44,910
well as I got, but you know
what, I never feared for my

716
00:53:44,910 --> 00:53:49,110
authority, because I knew at the
end of the day, they knew I had

717
00:53:49,110 --> 00:53:53,400
the stripes. They knew who what,
who was in charge. And they knew

718
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:59,070
that if I put my foot down, I
was gonna get my way. So I I

719
00:53:59,070 --> 00:54:03,480
never saw it as threatening my
authority or threatening my

720
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:10,020
position or hurting my ego. If
people criticized my ideas or my

721
00:54:10,050 --> 00:54:14,130
my opinions. Well, in you were
right. And it wasn't about

722
00:54:14,130 --> 00:54:17,910
getting your way it was about
leading and you sometimes got

723
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:21,840
lead. Well, was about getting
getting to the right solution.

724
00:54:21,870 --> 00:54:23,160
Right, right. Right.

725
00:54:24,570 --> 00:54:28,110
So what's the best vehicle
you've ever owned? Well, that's

726
00:54:28,110 --> 00:54:28,860
a tough one.

727
00:54:33,750 --> 00:54:36,300
I have owned a lot of great
ones.

728
00:54:41,310 --> 00:54:43,260
I would say you know, for

729
00:54:44,430 --> 00:54:49,020
everyday driving and putting it
into the context of the day,

730
00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:57,360
which is 70s, early 70s. It was
hard to beat

731
00:54:59,070 --> 00:54:59,970
three

732
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,670
litre fuel injected BMW coupe.

733
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:12,360
That was that was, I mean, a
beautiful car, well made

734
00:55:12,390 --> 00:55:13,560
reliable.

735
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:19,050
With the fuel injected version,
I think at 210 horsepower,

736
00:55:19,050 --> 00:55:24,870
which, back in those days was
awesome. And the ride was good.

737
00:55:24,870 --> 00:55:30,030
It was the refinement was great.
And that was back in the day

738
00:55:30,030 --> 00:55:35,730
when, even when, even after I
left BMW, people would ask me,

739
00:55:36,300 --> 00:55:40,230
who do you think builds the best
cars in the world today? My

740
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:45,540
answer was invariably, BMW
because when it came to

741
00:55:46,980 --> 00:55:52,530
engine refinement, engine,
reliable reliability of the

742
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:57,030
beautiful blend of performance
and handling, roominess fit and

743
00:55:57,030 --> 00:55:57,690
finish

744
00:55:58,770 --> 00:56:04,050
Brand Character, and it was hard
to beat BMW weight distribution.

745
00:56:04,710 --> 00:56:09,570
Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean,
they had in their period of

746
00:56:09,570 --> 00:56:13,890
rapid growth when they really
built when they built the three

747
00:56:13,890 --> 00:56:19,050
series, The Five series and the
seven series. They were a

748
00:56:19,050 --> 00:56:23,250
supremely outstanding automobile
company. That's a good choice.

749
00:56:23,250 --> 00:56:25,890
And there's a lot of people that
would like to have one of those

750
00:56:25,890 --> 00:56:27,030
from that era now.

751
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:34,860
I mean, CSI coops, and even the
CSL lightweight coops, which

752
00:56:34,860 --> 00:56:39,750
were had the naturally aspirated
engine for racing homologation

753
00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:43,740
reasons. Even those are, you
know, the value of those, I

754
00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:47,760
think, if you're looking at four
or $500,000, yeah, they're

755
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,140
precious. They're precious.

756
00:56:50,250 --> 00:56:54,420
So, given the emphasis and
everything looking like

757
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,280
you think design is dead? No,
because

758
00:57:00,450 --> 00:57:01,560
if you look at what

759
00:57:03,990 --> 00:57:06,600
Mike Simcoe has tried to do at
GM,

760
00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:12,990
he's developing a new design
language for Chevrolet. And if

761
00:57:12,990 --> 00:57:15,150
you look at the new Chevrolet
blazer,

762
00:57:16,350 --> 00:57:21,930
electric, the electric blazer,
yes, it's a midsize, mid to

763
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:28,350
large ish size SUV, but it's
totally radically different

764
00:57:28,350 --> 00:57:32,940
looking from everybody else's,
and it looks great. The same

765
00:57:32,940 --> 00:57:37,920
thing is true for the Cadillac
lyric, and then you go to the

766
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:38,670
Cadillac

767
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:45,390
sell Mystique, even more so.

768
00:57:46,770 --> 00:57:47,340
And

769
00:57:48,570 --> 00:57:55,710
Buick is getting a new design
language. So I think Mike Simcoe

770
00:57:55,740 --> 00:58:02,010
and the GM product development,
people are keenly aware of the

771
00:58:02,010 --> 00:58:06,690
problem of sameness out there.
And I honestly think

772
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:14,040
it's a realization that a lot of
the companies are coming to.

773
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:20,940
And so I'm hoping we'll see more
diversity, because it's, it's

774
00:58:20,940 --> 00:58:25,350
important, right now, he is not
that will tell you, but styling

775
00:58:25,350 --> 00:58:29,640
is not dead. But when I look at
some of the German brands,

776
00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:33,240
and I look at some of the
Japanese brands,

777
00:58:34,470 --> 00:58:39,090
they may not styling may not be
dead, but it appears to be in a

778
00:58:39,090 --> 00:58:39,780
coma.

779
00:58:42,060 --> 00:58:45,810
It's the product stupid, well,
and the product is really

780
00:58:46,890 --> 00:58:52,380
90% of the product is how does
it look in the in an era of

781
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:56,880
increasing technological
sameness, fuel economy,

782
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,720
sameness, right and handling
sameness, safety features,

783
00:59:00,750 --> 00:59:03,630
fineness, reliability, sameness.

784
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:10,650
styling, makes the difference.
Is that a is that a Duesenberg

785
00:59:10,650 --> 00:59:14,310
you've got over your shoulder or
is it a Chrysler Imperial?

786
00:59:15,540 --> 00:59:19,440
That's a doozy and that is
actually the old three Pebble

787
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,710
Beach poster. Okay. All right.
It's

788
00:59:23,790 --> 00:59:27,720
a certified duisenberg. It's a
little fuzzy on my screen, but I

789
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,410
was able to pick it out. Yep.
Yep. Not bad. Do you see this

790
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,680
plaster model or is it not
showing up? It's not on the

791
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:41,280
screen. I have a plaster show
room model that was on my dad's

792
00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:45,330
shelf and his lot in Royal Oak,
Michigan that I ended up with.

793
00:59:45,810 --> 00:59:51,150
Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I don't
know the model. It could have

794
00:59:51,150 --> 00:59:51,810
been

795
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:59,220
done by Kaiser Fraser Kaiser.
Yeah, it's somewhat reminiscent

796
00:59:59,220 --> 00:59:59,970
of the Kaiser

797
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,630
Manhattan that actually might be
what it is now that you

798
01:00:03,630 --> 01:00:07,320
mentioned when I was a kid I
thought my dad said Nash and I

799
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:11,310
hadn't paid attention but this
might be a Kaiser Manhattan. So

800
01:00:11,340 --> 01:00:14,700
you know Warren Brown talked
about I don't know half hour 45

801
01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:17,340
minutes and he said he got the
biggest interior education of

802
01:00:17,340 --> 01:00:20,400
his life sitting with you in a
car talking about the feel how

803
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,180
the the windows the knob make
you feel like the manufacturer

804
01:00:24,180 --> 01:00:25,020
spend some money.

805
01:00:27,390 --> 01:00:31,290
But I want to ask you a two part
question. What makes a good

806
01:00:31,290 --> 01:00:34,020
interior but I also want to
throw in now that there's

807
01:00:34,020 --> 01:00:35,010
touchscreens,

808
01:00:36,060 --> 01:00:38,010
how do you think that impacts
Well,

809
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:44,010
a good interior is the second
most important

810
01:00:45,690 --> 01:00:49,410
contact with the customer. The
first is the exterior

811
01:00:49,410 --> 01:00:54,210
appearance. And then when the
customer opens the door, the

812
01:00:54,210 --> 01:00:58,890
interior asked to keep the
promise that the exterior mate

813
01:00:59,250 --> 01:01:03,900
and this is where GM was so weak
in the 90s and when at when I

814
01:01:03,900 --> 01:01:09,210
joined them in that some of the
exterior design wasn't that bad.

815
01:01:10,530 --> 01:01:14,310
You know, the panels didn't fit
very well and the paint was

816
01:01:14,310 --> 01:01:18,840
maybe a little dull, but the
shapes were okay. But when you

817
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:24,030
open the door, you saw acres of
cheap, dark grey cloth,

818
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:30,390
dark grey plastic instrument
panels with ugly knobs that went

819
01:01:30,390 --> 01:01:34,560
clack, clack, clack when you
move them, and it looks so

820
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:38,100
downmarket I always said our
interiors looked like they were

821
01:01:38,100 --> 01:01:42,330
made by Mattel only forgot the
colors and

822
01:01:43,860 --> 01:01:44,250
and

823
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:49,860
they were measuring the wrong
face. They were looking at JD

824
01:01:49,860 --> 01:01:54,450
Power, complaints of
functionality in the interior

825
01:01:54,450 --> 01:01:57,270
and they said there's nothing
wrong with our interior. Look at

826
01:01:57,270 --> 01:02:01,470
our JD Power scores. Well, JD
Power measures things gone

827
01:02:01,470 --> 01:02:05,490
wrong. It never looks at things
gone, right? It doesn't look at

828
01:02:05,490 --> 01:02:09,180
the appeal. It doesn't. It
doesn't measure whether people

829
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:13,380
bought the car because of the
interior or not. But a good

830
01:02:13,380 --> 01:02:15,330
interior has to

831
01:02:17,010 --> 01:02:23,310
have rich, rich looking
materials, whether it's wood, or

832
01:02:23,310 --> 01:02:30,510
piano, black, or carbon fiber,
etc, etc. And the materials have

833
01:02:30,510 --> 01:02:36,270
to look genuine. So try to
substitute aluminum spray Kade

834
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:41,370
spray campaign, instead of
foiling real aluminum over him

835
01:02:41,730 --> 01:02:46,950
doesn't work that immediately
says bottom and then the

836
01:02:46,950 --> 01:02:54,090
textures have to look like they
are soft, so that even if it's a

837
01:02:54,090 --> 01:02:59,070
hard plastic instrument panel
upper, it's got to be grained

838
01:02:59,490 --> 01:03:04,680
and may be painted with a soft
touch paint to where it looks

839
01:03:04,710 --> 01:03:09,120
soft and compliant. The worst
possible thing is to look for

840
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,630
everything to look like it's
been armor alt. And then

841
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,760
instruments have to be clear,
legible

842
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:24,390
look like they were they they
have to if they're if they're

843
01:03:24,450 --> 01:03:27,810
conventional instruments, they
have to look like they came off

844
01:03:27,810 --> 01:03:33,720
of a Swiss watch. So there are
buttons you can touch with the

845
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:40,770
customer. For instance, circular
knobs. I like circular knobs

846
01:03:40,770 --> 01:03:45,090
that feel like you're adjusting
the lens on an expensive camera.

847
01:03:46,020 --> 01:03:51,180
If they go clack clack clack
from position to position that

848
01:03:51,180 --> 01:03:55,380
is not going to function
function of function wise,

849
01:03:55,380 --> 01:03:59,550
there's nothing wrong with that.
But it sends the wrong signal to

850
01:03:59,550 --> 01:04:04,230
the customer. So the tactile
feels got to be good. The

851
01:04:04,230 --> 01:04:08,880
materials have to be good. The
gloss levels have to be very

852
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:14,010
subdued, subdued. And then
adding a little bling doesn't

853
01:04:14,010 --> 01:04:19,440
hurt. It's a few dollars on the
interior but putting a bright

854
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:25,770
ring around the cupholders says
value. And if you look at a

855
01:04:25,770 --> 01:04:31,530
friend of mine collects 1960s
American luxury cars. He's got

856
01:04:31,530 --> 01:04:32,220
70

857
01:04:34,290 --> 01:04:38,280
and you should see these things.
Mercury grant mercury, Grand

858
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:42,060
Marquis, Buick Doosan, a
quarters

859
01:04:43,650 --> 01:04:49,590
Lincoln's etc. You'd look at the
interiors of those things. Boy,

860
01:04:49,590 --> 01:04:56,580
did we ever lavish money and
chrome and attention on those

861
01:04:56,580 --> 01:05:00,000
1960s interiors. I mean and the
door

862
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,040
trim panels, the armrests, and
little chrome surrounds around

863
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,690
everything. And

864
01:05:07,770 --> 01:05:13,770
I mean, it was you open the door
and wow, look at all this stuff.

865
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:20,670
And then somehow, in the 80s and
90s, we moved away from that.

866
01:05:21,180 --> 01:05:25,230
And we went to these cheap and
cheerful, dark grey and black

867
01:05:25,230 --> 01:05:30,030
plastic interiors, which made no
sense whatsoever. But the good

868
01:05:30,030 --> 01:05:35,040
news is, everybody's getting it.
General Motors slipped up a

869
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:39,210
couple of times after my
departure, tried a couple of

870
01:05:39,210 --> 01:05:41,370
downmarket pickup interiors that

871
01:05:42,540 --> 01:05:49,380
created a lot of pushback. But
the new GM interiors are great.

872
01:05:50,220 --> 01:05:55,680
Chrysler, or still Ennis
interiors are wonderful. And in

873
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:56,490
my judgment,

874
01:05:57,990 --> 01:06:02,820
the best premium interiors,
possibly in the world right now

875
01:06:03,930 --> 01:06:08,280
are produced by Lincoln, both in
the Navigator and in the

876
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,270
aviator. It's a shame with the
interiors on the Lincoln though

877
01:06:12,270 --> 01:06:16,230
with the sheet metal, you know,
Ford throwing all the money and

878
01:06:16,230 --> 01:06:19,020
incentives to get rid of
inventory. But they haven't

879
01:06:19,020 --> 01:06:22,500
updated sheet metal on Lincoln
in a while. Yeah, well, that's

880
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:26,700
you know, that's that's starting
to show, although the big the,

881
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:33,210
the aviator is fairly new. And
the navigator is newer than

882
01:06:33,210 --> 01:06:38,730
that. And the navigator, I don't
particularly like the outside

883
01:06:38,730 --> 01:06:43,890
shape. But the front end is
nice. And the interiors are

884
01:06:43,890 --> 01:06:44,640
dynamite.

885
01:06:45,690 --> 01:06:50,940
Interiors, I agree. Are you
still flying? No. I packed it in

886
01:06:50,940 --> 01:06:53,730
about four years ago at age 88.

887
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:57,780
Well, you know, I probably would
have done it by 87. But you

888
01:06:57,780 --> 01:06:58,020
know,

889
01:07:00,390 --> 01:07:02,280
I just told myself, you know,
what?

890
01:07:04,860 --> 01:07:11,640
My ability to fly the airplane,
the military jet, or the

891
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:16,770
helicopter had not diminished.
But I told myself, what if I had

892
01:07:16,770 --> 01:07:23,040
to eject over northern Michigan
with no cell phone coverage, and

893
01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:27,330
had to walk my way out for like
10 miles to the nearest road?

894
01:07:28,350 --> 01:07:32,760
In the old days, arguably, I
could have done it. But at age

895
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:33,540
88

896
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:38,250
I think I would have become wolf
food in

897
01:07:40,350 --> 01:07:41,880
10 Miles is St. Agnes.

898
01:07:43,500 --> 01:07:44,490
Got it. Okay.

899
01:07:46,530 --> 01:07:50,550
Do you think there's too much
tooling or parts production in

900
01:07:50,550 --> 01:07:58,080
China? Well, yes, and no, I'm
all for getting the best parts

901
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:02,310
and components possible at the
best possible prices. But

902
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:10,080
I do share the concern that the
US and Europe

903
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:17,970
might be victims of being
hollowed out by predatory

904
01:08:17,970 --> 01:08:21,540
Chinese pricing. And there's no
question, you know, we used to

905
01:08:21,540 --> 01:08:25,950
associated Chinese stuff with
cheap and cheerful. Well, it's

906
01:08:25,950 --> 01:08:29,190
not cheap and cheerful. They
have brilliant engineers,

907
01:08:29,190 --> 01:08:33,420
they've got a great education
system. The Chinese are a very

908
01:08:33,420 --> 01:08:39,000
intelligent, hardworking,
quality focus people. So they

909
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:43,980
produce that we shouldn't take.
We shouldn't think that we are

910
01:08:44,310 --> 01:08:45,570
in any way.

911
01:08:47,850 --> 01:08:54,210
racially or ethnically superior,
because we certainly are not.

912
01:08:55,170 --> 01:09:02,220
But they also have a government
that subsidizes industry wants

913
01:09:02,220 --> 01:09:06,000
to dominate the global
automobile industry. And

914
01:09:07,170 --> 01:09:13,740
I think if if the US gets hard
evidence that China the Chinese

915
01:09:13,740 --> 01:09:18,540
supplier industry, or automotive
industry, for that matter, is

916
01:09:18,540 --> 01:09:23,430
playing by different rules than
what we play by in the West,

917
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:28,740
then I think tariffs on Chinese
stuff would be justified.

918
01:09:29,160 --> 01:09:33,060
Interesting. Now I see you've
got your books on display behind

919
01:09:33,060 --> 01:09:36,240
so do we need to promote a
little? Sure. So a lot of

920
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:39,870
executives have read your book.
But given a few years have

921
01:09:39,870 --> 01:09:44,910
passed? What advice would you
give with your reading

922
01:09:44,940 --> 01:09:49,230
experience since? Well, one,
first of all,

923
01:09:50,310 --> 01:09:55,080
the lessons in guts are sort of
timeless because they're lessons

924
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:59,970
in leadership. The lessons in
car guys were

925
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:06,690
some bean counters are also
timeless, because I said, car

926
01:10:06,690 --> 01:10:08,940
guys versus bean counters, but

927
01:10:09,960 --> 01:10:14,070
my ophthalmologist read the
book. And he said, when I read

928
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:18,690
that, I thought you were talking
about the ophthalmology

929
01:10:18,690 --> 01:10:22,590
industry. And people from
various industries tell me, You

930
01:10:22,590 --> 01:10:27,030
know what, it's exactly the same
in my business. And I'll bet

931
01:10:27,030 --> 01:10:32,250
it's the same in the grocery
trade. And one thing, Boeing,

932
01:10:32,280 --> 01:10:37,500
Boeing would not be in the mess
today. If enough people had red

933
01:10:37,500 --> 01:10:42,120
car guys versus bean counters,
because what happened to Boeing

934
01:10:42,510 --> 01:10:47,670
is precisely what I would want
what car guys versus bean

935
01:10:47,670 --> 01:10:52,320
counters, tried to warn every
large company in America,

936
01:10:53,670 --> 01:10:58,560
about which is bean counters are
necessary financial discipline

937
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,790
is necessary, the revenue coming
in has to be higher than the

938
01:11:02,790 --> 01:11:08,460
cost, etc, etc. But if you're
into the airplane business, and

939
01:11:08,490 --> 01:11:13,230
you no longer are being run by
airplane, guys, with the bean

940
01:11:13,230 --> 01:11:13,980
counters,

941
01:11:15,090 --> 01:11:18,150
checking up on him and making
sure they don't go out of

942
01:11:18,150 --> 01:11:24,180
control that's necessary. What
what I, the analogy I use is the

943
01:11:24,180 --> 01:11:31,410
product guides are the engine.
And the bean counters are the

944
01:11:31,410 --> 01:11:37,530
steering wheel, and the brakes.
And for a successful car, you

945
01:11:37,530 --> 01:11:41,940
need both. But you're not going
to have a race winning car if

946
01:11:41,970 --> 01:11:44,040
the focus isn't on the gadget.

947
01:11:45,060 --> 01:11:51,480
So I hope I am heartened by the
fact that friends tell me that

948
01:11:52,590 --> 01:11:57,720
I continuity, it's, by the way,
Timeless Lessons in leadership,

949
01:11:57,720 --> 01:12:03,450
what works and what doesn't. And
it kind of even before it became

950
01:12:04,140 --> 01:12:08,910
well known, but I kind of
covered the Elon Musk syndrome.

951
01:12:09,390 --> 01:12:14,580
Because my premise in the book
is that successful leaders of

952
01:12:14,580 --> 01:12:20,040
large organizations are often
flawed individuals. They're

953
01:12:20,970 --> 01:12:26,100
ultimately they're successful,
but they have a weird side to

954
01:12:26,100 --> 01:12:30,390
them, which makes them hard to
work for. And I think you know,

955
01:12:30,420 --> 01:12:34,740
Elon Musk is the poster child
for that, without question, the

956
01:12:34,740 --> 01:12:39,510
most brilliant minds of the 21st
century, but also without

957
01:12:39,510 --> 01:12:45,030
question, the strangest and most
controversial CEO of the 21st

958
01:12:45,030 --> 01:12:49,020
century. So which one do you
want to focus on? I think Jobs

959
01:12:49,020 --> 01:12:52,110
had a pretty good reputation for
being not so easy to work for.

960
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,080
Yeah, another another, another
good example.

961
01:12:56,100 --> 01:12:58,470
But I am heartened by the fact
that

962
01:13:00,510 --> 01:13:02,850
friends of mine who work for
NASA,

963
01:13:04,170 --> 01:13:08,400
tell me that car guys versus
bean counters is being read by

964
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:15,810
people in NASA. And it's being
read in the Pentagon. So my

965
01:13:15,810 --> 01:13:20,550
financial well being doesn't
rely on book sales, happily. But

966
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:25,050
I would, I would like, the
lessons especially of car guys

967
01:13:25,050 --> 01:13:30,660
versus bean counters, and icons
and idiots. I would like to see

968
01:13:30,660 --> 01:13:35,880
those lessons, or the Yeah, the
the lessons in the book more

969
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:39,510
broadly read, because I think it
would be good for

970
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:45,270
American society. What would
someone be surprised to know

971
01:13:45,270 --> 01:13:46,170
about you, Bob?

972
01:13:47,670 --> 01:13:52,740
Well, I think many people are
surprised that I own two pet

973
01:13:52,740 --> 01:13:53,340
pigs.

974
01:13:55,980 --> 01:14:00,750
House and I love him dearly. And
pigs are I find them extremely

975
01:14:00,750 --> 01:14:05,970
interesting animals. Because if
you want slavish adoration all

976
01:14:05,970 --> 01:14:12,000
day long, and somebody to tell
you how great you are 24/7 got a

977
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:18,060
dog. Pics don't do that. Pigs
regard you as Winston Churchill

978
01:14:18,060 --> 01:14:24,030
said, dogs worship us. Cats
looked down on us, pigs consider

979
01:14:24,030 --> 01:14:29,490
us they're equals. And that's
really true is pigs are highly

980
01:14:29,490 --> 01:14:34,110
intelligent, and they have their
own minds. And if you win the

981
01:14:34,110 --> 01:14:38,910
affection of a pig, you've
earned it. And it's a very

982
01:14:38,910 --> 01:14:42,690
interesting dynamic. The
interaction with a pig is

983
01:14:42,690 --> 01:14:47,100
something really wonderful. I
love those things. The other

984
01:14:47,100 --> 01:14:51,810
thing that many people might be
surprised to hear is that I love

985
01:14:51,810 --> 01:14:56,130
to cook and I spend a great deal
of time in the kitchen. A third

986
01:14:56,130 --> 01:14:59,970
thing that is becoming a little
bit better now.

987
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:06,630
One is that I am a very
enthusiastic practitioner of

988
01:15:06,780 --> 01:15:13,080
time honored modeling media,
which is making highly accurate,

989
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:19,590
highly detailed scratchbuild.
Airplane and car models out of

990
01:15:19,590 --> 01:15:25,140
paper. I saw that article. Yeah.
Okay, so that was in Hemmings, I

991
01:15:25,140 --> 01:15:25,800
think. And

992
01:15:27,780 --> 01:15:33,060
so the word is getting out on
that one. Now the pigs, I'm

993
01:15:33,060 --> 01:15:36,330
intrigued by the pigs, I've I've
certainly heard about pigs,

994
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:39,990
relationships and pets and
personnel. But are they

995
01:15:39,990 --> 01:15:43,320
housebroken? I mean, you take
them outside and they go, they

996
01:15:43,320 --> 01:15:47,460
are at birth, if you go to a
farm and visit the pig site.

997
01:15:48,510 --> 01:15:53,940
If you got 20 Pigs in a in one
enclosure, they select a corner

998
01:15:54,270 --> 01:16:00,150
that is designated as the urine
and defecation area. And the

999
01:16:00,150 --> 01:16:01,860
rest of the place is clean.

1000
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:06,600
And what Mother pigs have
litters. The first thing they

1001
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:12,690
show him is you go here. And
when you get a baby pig, where

1002
01:16:12,690 --> 01:16:15,900
you usually when they're seven
weeks old, or eight weeks old,

1003
01:16:16,410 --> 01:16:21,000
you're just showing the litter
box, they may have one accident

1004
01:16:21,030 --> 01:16:26,520
before they get it. But they're
automatically and totally

1005
01:16:26,790 --> 01:16:30,150
broken. But it's not about
waiting until you let them out

1006
01:16:30,150 --> 01:16:32,760
if they use a litter box, or
paper or whatever the area's

1007
01:16:32,790 --> 01:16:35,820
Well, you know, in the winter,
when it's cold outside, they

1008
01:16:35,820 --> 01:16:39,510
prefer to use the litter box. In
the summer, we leave the door

1009
01:16:39,510 --> 01:16:44,160
open and they go out on the
property and an interesting like

1010
01:16:44,160 --> 01:16:47,820
humans, they don't want to be
seen when they're going to the

1011
01:16:47,820 --> 01:16:50,700
bed really got there. So

1012
01:16:51,720 --> 01:16:56,100
as the pig breeder said, if you
watch that litter box the whole

1013
01:16:56,100 --> 01:16:59,490
time, they're not going to go,
you have to go do something

1014
01:16:59,490 --> 01:17:02,760
else. And when you come back,
you will find that the poop

1015
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:07,530
fairy has visited the litter
box. That's, that's very, very,

1016
01:17:07,530 --> 01:17:09,600
very interesting. You know,
naturally, it's

1017
01:17:10,650 --> 01:17:13,950
difficult to go when someone's
watching. But I would say that I

1018
01:17:13,950 --> 01:17:17,130
would rather pee while people
are watching then tee off at a

1019
01:17:17,130 --> 01:17:17,760
golf course.

1020
01:17:20,220 --> 01:17:25,170
Want to say and what would you
like people to know about you? I

1021
01:17:25,170 --> 01:17:29,520
would like people to know that.
Even though I'm a former Marine

1022
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:31,620
officer, and

1023
01:17:32,730 --> 01:17:34,830
believe in duty and commitment.

1024
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:41,970
I don't think I'm a hard person
to work for. I think I'm

1025
01:17:41,970 --> 01:17:46,470
understanding I think I listen.
I think I'm fairly empathetic.

1026
01:17:47,280 --> 01:17:52,230
And it bothers me what used to
bother me in the

1027
01:17:53,370 --> 01:17:57,510
like the Wall Street Journal ad
have a favorite phrase. Is that

1028
01:17:58,290 --> 01:17:58,800
that

1029
01:17:59,820 --> 01:18:06,990
cuff talking cigar chomping ex
Marine, Sergeant rock. Yeah. And

1030
01:18:07,020 --> 01:18:11,700
I don't think I'm like that. I
think I'm basically very soft

1031
01:18:11,700 --> 01:18:15,750
and squishy. I can be hard when
I have to be but I don't like

1032
01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:19,770
doing that. That's not me. Did
you evolve to that? Bob? Did you

1033
01:18:19,770 --> 01:18:23,460
mature to that one of the
leaders tools in the toolkit

1034
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:28,020
that you occasionally have to
use, and you have to be

1035
01:18:28,020 --> 01:18:28,680
assertive.

1036
01:18:29,970 --> 01:18:35,400
I see very nice people who are
bright, have a great education.

1037
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,520
And they're not assertive. And
if you're not assertive,

1038
01:18:39,030 --> 01:18:43,950
unfortunately, you're not going
to go anywhere. Bob, I want you

1039
01:18:43,950 --> 01:18:46,800
to know that for me personally,
this is a moment I'll never

1040
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,160
forget whatever celebrity or
rock star or astronaut or

1041
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,650
whoever you'd like to meet.
That's what it was like for me

1042
01:18:52,650 --> 01:18:56,040
the last hour and change. I
really appreciate it. You're

1043
01:18:56,130 --> 01:19:00,120
overly kind, but it feels good.
All right, well, wonderful.

1044
01:19:04,980 --> 01:19:08,760
This has been Jeff Sterns
connected through cars