ANDREAS WIL GERDES- DIGITAL NOMAD- GERMANY'S 1st MOBILE PHONE CO

Jeff Sterns  0:00  
This included selling part of the company buying it back selling it again, because we needed additional capital to grow at exponential at an extra exponential rate with an environment which was a high tax environment called Germany for creators and a company which became orange in which we took public on the London Stock Market. Then I pursued mobile opportunities in Asia because this was interesting. And logically, if you look at a country like Indonesia, if you are paid in Miami, whatever it is 10 or $15 per hour, and this is triple of what you make in Cuba. So people in Miami are happier the people in Cuba of your family whom you can send sounds of money are happy, and it works and it boosts Cuba and it boosts Miami, your partner in your mobile phone company in Germany, ended up with Timo women who claimed that they're discriminated and that they don't have equal opportunities. And then I say yes, that is probably true. If you look at it that way. College is something which is absolutely not needed. I'm not interested in what are called plastic cars full of laptops. There is a study which is actually a US based study, which has tested kiddos prekindergarten. And they have a 98% of them have a genius level when it comes to problem solving, and creativity. This 98% goes down to 10% when they're finished with a PhD. Jeff Sterns connected through cars, if they're bigwigs, we'll have him on the show. And yes, we'll talk about cars and everything else. Here he is now, Jeff Sterns, Jeff Sterns connected through cars with my good friend and Dre, his skirt is now you really need to understand how Andrius and I met Andreas, I think it was around the year 2000. Or Oh, one could that be 2001? Probably Yeah. Okay. And I get a call from a fellow who's first of all, giving me a tourism commercial from the country of Malta letting me know how he's enjoying them. The Mediterranean winds off the northern coast of Africa with this beautiful voice and later, I learned to hate him because he was very tall, very good looking. And you know, this great voice that sounded so good that if he read the white pages, phone book to you, it would sound good. But Andrea's wanted a car or to you introduce me to the term kind of a 10 foot car, or three foot car or five. reefer? Yeah, yeah, man. So this is what I learned that spectrum Because ultimately, that car was not anywhere close, as good as the rosewood car, but I think the rosewood car came from a customer of yours. So with hindsight, that is something which is more relevant than any mileage or any, any technical fact, is the person who actually enjoys the custodianship of the car before. Now you triggered my memory, the rosewood car, that was the first. Yes, this is the one which I saw online. And this is when I called you and this is the first time that I ever called somebody in that part of the world. And so for the first time, then I researched dimmitt Motors. And this is when I heard about Jeff Sterns. Well, Andrea says, introduced me to a lot of technology. If I recall, you told me what a Skype was, and set me up an account that I still use called Jeff Sterns, and it's funny in dress, not every day, but certainly every week when I give somebody my email address, Sterns at gmail, people say why, no, you must have been so early. And I thought, Well, yeah, I said, I wasn't trying to be early, I said, I had a friend of mine that called me. And he said, Listen, there's this new email, where you don't have to be stuck based on your internet provider at your house, you can look from anywhere. And I set you up an account. So Andres has always been my cutting edge. Technology, buddy. Yeah, but isn't you You helped me a lot with understanding cars. And I could do in any case, what I can do, because it's kind of thing which comes naturally to me is to understand what happens in the world of empowering people with new applications, which are boosting life in Gmail and with the kind of unlimited capacity as a time where it's very forward thinking now, I'm trying to I'm looking at the room that you're in. Are you at the Malta house? Yeah, yeah, I'm in North Africa. So we spend the winter it's no seven. It's exceptionally beautiful and green and warm enough for swimming. Well,

let's do a little tourism, commercial for Malta. So when I left the dealership that in Dreyfuss and I met through Doing a few car deals for, I think a couple of your locations, you ended up convincing me to visit you in Malta, to take advantage of what we call a car business vacation and a car business vacation is when you're in between jobs. And my son Jackson was to and Jackson and I came traveling to you. So if you can imagine me walking with this kid on a leash and carrying this baby seat, one of the things I learned traveling with Jackson, a two years old, is that when I was single, I should have rented somebody's baby to walk around with. That's all he had to do to have 10 girls or flight attendants or whatever. Coming up to you. We had a great time we came to you in Malta. Your hospitality was fabulous. Jackson still talks about it. And he still knows that's where he learned about Nutella. We were waiting Buhari how he slept in the in the kiddos a bad and Max slept halfway in the same thing. So they cuddle together. So yeah, it was it was a beautiful experience. And it was a great way to to connect two very different worlds. Very nice. Now, I don't know what you've added. I don't know what you've subtracted. But because we stay in touch, of course, but not talking all the time. So when we met your you had the place in Malta, I think you had a place in Munster that we're where you're from original. This is all just custodian responsibilities. So and yes, I will the lifetime I enjoyed creating spaces, and specifically taking care of older spaces to make sure that say things stay in good shape for whoever is taking them on in the future. And, but right now it's there. It's mainly Malta, we love to spend time in Istanbul. So we assembled for our life because it's a cool place, and connects Europe and Asia. And this historically, one of the most interesting places on the planet and has been always the largest city in Europe since last, what 2000 years. So yeah, Istanbul is a cool place, because it's a beautiful, beautiful melting pot. Yes. Well, I mean, really, Malta and Istanbul, have a little bit of similarity in the number of we'll say, custodians that have been, the nice thing is right now, since when, when you and I first met, it was unusual to travel around with a laptop and two or three phones, and work from Starbucks. So this was something which people found a little bit, sir. Yeah. And usually, it's the right terminology, probably, I experienced that ever since I got involved with mobile communication, which was at the age of 19. Today, it's standard practice, and especially since last year, when people buy who were ordered to work remotely. Now you have millions of people who realize that it's actually great to work remotely and to not be stuck in traffic. And people are by far more productive, and work from anywhere somewhere in nature somewhere in a co working space, maybe from a beach, maybe from home, whatever suits them best, but they do not lose everyday hours for commuting and hang out in what we created in the last 200 years office spaces. So our that is just not conducive for the most people to actually use their brain and and live a great life. You are definitely ndarray is one of the originators of the laptop lifestyle. No kidding.

Yeah, I was able to get some mobility idea but did not originate it. If you look back before 200 years, 200 years ago, we introduced this concrete box, or it wasn't probably any concrete at the time, but we introduced the office. And there's a beautiful article in The Economist from last year, April, where somebody wrote a letter in 1823. And same By the way, now, they expect me to be stuck in a place during the golden hours of the day. And this feels like death. Yeah, so we only for 200 years can raise the idea of locking up people in places before that. We were still functioning and operating. But we didn't come up with the idea of locking people into the same space. And so this was part of the Industrial Revolution method of controlling people. And we justified that for a long time was then telephones, computer cables and other things. And all of this stuff has become obsolete. And people now listen last year realize that being first of all, sitting all day in a space is not good because humans are not designed for that. Now we are not designed to sit still at desk so you can work for two or three hours here two or three hours there and co play with the kids in between or go running and eat healthy food in the kitchen and set up some stuff which you might get somewhere while you are in a normal office environment. So people's health and happiness have been improving big time through The fact that location became secondary, very interesting. I always have personally liked the car business. I mean, although I was at a, typically a single location and did have an office, but I mainly spent most of my time outside either with the cars with the customers out back in the service department, on foot, at least traveling around some acreage, and in and out and never the same and never stuck at the desk. Yeah. And I never thought of that that's exactly what you're talking about. But you can see people who are sitting at a desk, they have back problems they have for z as the arteries get clogged logically, because it has no circulation and all of it. So we realize it now. But people are even people are much happier. And you know, if you're in practice, if you have concrete on your head all day, that is just not good for radiating and receiving positive energy from the outdoors. And this is what we all are stimulated by. And we see it now into this in 20 years, we will not talk about it anymore, right now is what we call new. And if you go back 200 years, it's actually is the old, we just had this timeframe in between where we thought at school to be stuck in an office. So let's go back a little bit in origin. I mean, yes, with this virus business, there's a lot more people working at home, etc, etc. But you are doing it not so much because an employer sent you home, or you couldn't go into a group because of the social closeness. You've been, since I've known you a really a picture of freedom. And I in you know being honest, it's because you did a little bit of good business earlier in your life. In the mobile business. I'm not saying that you wouldn't be remote now as an employee, but you've had a little bit of freedom. So if you don't mind a little origin. Can you take us back? If you'd like you can go into the odd and strange upbringing of yoga being involved in your childhood that

was pretty simple. So I'm okay. Going back from that perspective. Yes, I'm the youngest of eight. And I had the unique experience that my father was very sick when I was born, and reset his life by resigning from his career working for the German railways, and actually started a yoga school. And I was then growing up in euro school and had experiences and summer holidays, I was taken to ashrams and all this stuff, which at that time was rather unusual. This is we're talking about the 1970s there. And, yeah, and so for him, a vegan lifestyle was the practice. And he at a certain point, told my mother to just stay out of the kitchen, because he wanted to make sure that we are actually eating differently. And from today's perspective, those things are more relatable. But I remember at that time, I found it a little bit odd. Yeah. So this is what I grew up with. And this allowed me to take things into my own hands pretty early in the sense of sets, I was able to, to change schools, and then stopped going to school and signing up for an apprenticeship, which is a German model of being trained in a real life and real job environment. And I did set financial services when I was 15. And after two years and a few months, you get a degree. And this allows you to then operate. And I did that, and have been enjoying the mobile perspective of working mobile, I think all the time, because financial services at the time was actually based on meeting clients. So you drove around met clients got a whole bunch of files to see them. And you spend half the day on the road and met clients. So this is marriage. And this is how I got early on introduced to mobile communication solutions, because I thought, How can I be more efficient when I drive from one client to the other. And this logically led to answering machines with remote access. And this was the next step was in a car phone, and that became a mobile phone, etc. So I went very early into this. And then things changed in Germany, that they introduced mobile phone licenses, and I started just before that was a friend to sell mobile phones. And we were really successful because we did things slightly differently. And so we were in that industry early. And so and let's say at age 21, we were experts because we have been in there for two years, when other people who were double our age got into that industry, because it became usually popular and it became a major, major issue, even though it was still totally underestimated from my perspective. And yeah, I was in that business and This included selling part of the company buying it back selling it again, because we needed additional capital to grow at an exponential exponential rate with an environment, which was a high tax environment called Germany. And so that was part of the scenario. So yes, then logically will be sold a company, there was always some money which we made. And yes, this allowed me to have some kind of financial freedom at a very early age. But

that is, didn't change the underlying model, because I have been working kind of mobile before that when I did my apprenticeship. So but I got involved into mobile phones, and co creators and a company which became orange in which we took public on the London Stock Market, then I pursued mobile opportunities in Asia because this was interesting. And logically, if you look at a country like Indonesia, this was the largest digital phone license on the planet, because there was one, actually, there was an offer to participate in one mobile phone license for what more than 200 million people. And this is unheard of. So that's the largest on the planet, because the only countries which are bigger than Indonesia, only had regional licenses. And so I got involved in that, because I really loved to learn more about it to change society. So what I realized early, by empowering people to do things mobile, you allow them to get access to information. And to be efficient. As an example, taxi drivers, they were efficient while waiting for clients, they could run parallel things, or even people who clean pipes. So blocked pipes, they were far more efficient if they could get the next work assignment while being on the road. So instead of going back to the companies, they already got an emergency phone call from somewhere, or farmers in India who got information about the prices for crop. And for any of their produce, they will not depending on the information flow of middlemen know, they were able through a text message to check, what is the actual price. And Jeff, what was a breakthrough in Asia at the time was getting weather warnings. So this was pre internet. And so for people to get a weather warning was crucial. So they know you know what, we have a problem in two days better you go harvest now, it actually exists simple, simple things that I said, Wow, this is life changing. Yeah. And so or villages, which could not, which didn't have access to any phone. Yeah, so but they got one mobile phone, and logically, nobody could afford it at the time. But we came up with payment plan models, and issues and give as an example, one of the older women the responsibility for that phone, she makes sure everybody pays for the phone calls. And she collects the monthly view. And whoever provide that service actually gets paid at the end of the month. So but you can provide to a village, one phone, which makes the difference to everybody in the village, including emergency cases and keeping people alive when needed calling an ambulance or helicopter, whatever it is. Yeah. So those things were based on putting this these kind of solutions together. And I found that totally fascinating. And I still am until today, because we can see what changes how things change through now people having mobile internet in their hands, which when I saw that coming in 1999 people said, That's crazy. And I said no, it's not crazy. People will not carry around laptops, people will not sit at the desk. I don't think that is how humans are designed where we are intrinsically mobile. If we stop walking, we get a wheelchair, we don't get a fixed chair. So for me, it was clear that as soon as devices allow that feature, that people will use their phones anytime, anywhere, and will not decide or will not depend on cables on heavy laptops, or desktops or stuff like that. It's just not the way how humans operate. This is very interesting to me. So as a shallow capitalist, right, I'm just thinking, Oh, so what's the background and dress? I remember the tough times. And Marie told me because of money. You wrote a motorcycle, back and forth. Yep. For the cost of the vehicle and the cost of the fuel, even in the rain, whatever. And then also, I thought, Oh, what a visionary because I think at the time that you had these mobile phone and these were retail stores, right? Yes, in the beginning, we we did retail, but in a way that people would not or that we build strong relationships with the customers. And so we had we always kept a customer database Plus, they were delighted to come back to us for any software update. So we early on focused on having a customer centric approach and making sure that they love to come back. And but this was a time from I'm just From a visionary standpoint that if I recall, and this is just from you and I spending time together a long time ago, Motorola didn't see in Germany's future and pulled out or am I inventing that in my mind?

No, no, no, no Motorola had issue that they were there, then they moved out again. And this happened a few times. And they bought first the company called stoner, which was a sink, Scandinavian company and then got slowly into the market. But when when I got into this, the market experts in the late 80s predicted that we have 200, mobile phones in Germany by the year 2000. So, and I always found that odd. So I always believe that you have to structure differently, and make sure you allow people on payment plans to have access to these expensive phones as they were at the time, so that they compare the monthly costs of a mobile communication solution was actually running a secretary and an office. So instead of Secretary taking down the incoming phone calls, and as they get a list, when they come back, they would directly be able to process incoming phone calls while they're on the road. Now remember, the stock market crash in 89? And people, including my business partner at the time, were all irritated. I said, No, no, it's an amazing opportunity. We come up now with payment plan models. And actually people realize, yes, you will reduce your costs. And yes, what you need for that is a mobile phone. So what's interesting, I love your perspective. And I love other perspectives. And that's one of the beautiful things about this recorded conversation that I love doing in these podcasts you talked about, and I wrote a note here about efficiency, whether it be the farmer getting crop prices, or whether it be a country or region getting a weather update. And of course, somebody's not needing their secretary. So when I'm selling, I'm often reframing the cost of something not as an expense, but as an investment and or you're replacing this. So I didn't even think about when you're selling a phone, that Listen, you can pick up some efficiency and not have to rely on the secretary so much potentially even have less Secretary staff. So efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, and I love this, but I've got to tell you, and dress on one hand, you talk about the freedom that you get and the mobility that you get in the digital nomad thing that we'll get into, based on mobile phones. But some of the people that I'm most jealous of, for example, you know, I'm in the business of selling software and consulting to car dealers. And I was talking to the owner of a dealership in his early 80s, the other day, and I said, Listen, can I send you this information? He goes, I'm gonna have to give you to someone who can give you their email. I've never sent an email or a text in my life. And I was actually a little jealous, because yes, very, very, very efficient. But I find myself reacting and taking care of business morning tonight. As soon as I wake up before I go to bed, in between, during a zoom call, like if it was a business meeting like this, I could turn a half a dozen texts, whatever. And then I'm also nervous about the How about not nervous Well, I'm nervous but a little not in love with the social media aspect. Now, you and I use social media. But I find that if I'm not careful that I could wake up in whether it be 10 minutes or 60 minutes could go by looking at social. How do you feel about that? That's your choice. That's it. It's your choice. So it's like with everything if you have a TV at home, there are some people who keep the eye I once experienced. I went into relationship with American girlfriend and she would actually sleep as a TV writing because she liked to have this kind of a gray noise in the background. I found it utterly Cuckoo. So I rather keep the window open and wake up when when he has a burrito in the morning after sunrise. But depends as always depends on what's good, what you feel is good for you. So I believe like having a phone in general having the first phone lines 120 years ago, it's it's an option you can spend all day on it. Or you can use it when you need it is your choice. But this was everything is like a knife if you use a knife and introduce a knife to somebody the first occasion and chopping off or cutting off the head of a bird. I'm sure that person is traumatized probably. Yeah. So but depends on what you use a knife for. Yeah, we have so many things which we can use for different purposes. Social media is social. And it connects you is media so is different mediums. So you can see people hear people, you have all the options but you you decide if you use it or not. Like you can enjoy you can enjoy a car but I can tell you you can drive into 10 people. You can use it as a weapon. Yes. Do I now look at the car as a weapon. I remind people who I see speeding, accelerating that to actually have a weapon. But sometimes people forget that

this is a challenging point. And I like it because you talk about mobile, freedom, and creating freedom. And when I was talking to this dealer the other day saying, when I make it Someday, I'll be the guy with a Nokia phone with no screen on it, where I don't get a text or an email, and that'll be the end of it, then I'll be free. But the parable that you bring up about the, the choice, exactly, you have is a very good point. And I liked it. This is the same, this the same thing. I did a NLP training once, and it's a master program to that in Sri Lanka. And then you have people sitting on the beach, with the toys is everything that finds a nature. And I have watched those families with their kids sitting there celebrating the sunset, they do it on most days. So that is a lifestyle, which we can compare often in the Western world, was a kind of a wealthy person who sold his business totally bullshit. If you look at what makes you being part of the 1% of the wealthiest people on the planet, if you go to a place like India, which is one of the most beautiful countries I experienced in my life, you only need $60,000 Yeah, so then you're one of the 1% of the wealthiest people. And you can probably have a great life with that. So it's all a question of perspective. Or you can go to Sri Lanka, and you don't even bother and sit on the beach and have that lifestyle. It's a question of how you want to live your life, Mother Earth offers you all the options. Very interesting. So for me, what I take from this right now is when I'm looking at a device, I want to be in the consciousness of making the decision about what am I doing with it? And am I using it? Or is it using me, you know, etc? And I'm gonna think of you like really? Like, I'll have you on my shoulder. Thinking about that. So what's interesting in Andres, is that you talked about what this does, for a lot of people in a lot of countries, a lot of situations. But you've never really left this idea. Because I can remember, for example, when you got your house in upstate New York, you ended up doing something with the Wi Fi in that city or town, am I right? Yes, because they didn't have cell phone coverage. And I said, That's okay. So but I just organized that I send somebody around with, with powerful Wi Fi routers, which I gave to people are long that Main Street. And this routers had two setups. One is for the in house Wi Fi and one for the external Wi Fi. And so they kept the external open. And this allowed people to make Skype phone calls in that walking area. So which made my life easier so that I could still reach or receive phone calls. Because logically, this is what part of my operating model depended on so I wasn't stuck to a cable and that house, but I was able to receive phone calls via Skype, while either being somewhere in downtown are setting into local pressing diner or stuff like that. So this was the simple solution. And so this was new to them. Yep, The New York Times picks it up at the time and said, by the way, wow, we have our Skype enabled Mainstreet. So this was a new model for them. But it's the same concept. So you just came up with something which actually, first of all gets this little town in New York Times, and second adds value to people living there. So it's, it's a simple model. And so this is still the case, if you look at it now, I'm supporting some projects, which as an example, teach people in their teenage years, how to use smartphones to make money remotely. So if you look at parts of Europe, they are employ parts of Europe where people still leave their hometown as they are home country in pursuit of better opportunities. And is this is valid, this makes sense. But there's an alternative. And the alternative is for them to pursue remote work opportunities anywhere on the planet. Yeah, by just applying their basic English and social media competence. So yes, some of them will still leave fantastic. But I believe in giving some kind of a remote driver's license so that they can drive across the internet remotely, and actually are able to generate value and get paid for it. So that's something which is changing the landscape for a few countries. If you do this with a few 1000 young people, that becomes a viral now maybe it's too broad if it is it is but can you name any of the types of work people are doing from their phone

shows or virtual assistants as much tumble, as simple as that. So you can be an assistant for somebody, and he says, I'm traveling to this city, can you please do some research for me, I would love to meet people from the following business sectors to what what we normally would have delegated to executive assistants, or secretaries, etc. So instead of having a secretary who's sitting next to you, you can sign up people who do the work, who are often by far more familiar with using the internet to do proper research or contact people. And they can do it in a I think fraction of the time, and often two very competitive terms, to offer very competitive terms. It's as simple as that. So this is one thing, but you can do, I think there are very few things you cannot do remotely, there's what we learned last year, even at the health sector, Stanford hospital, or in California, I think we're able to treat nearly 80% of their patients remotely, but just consultations happening remotely, really time effective. Very interesting. And definitely better than looking up your symptoms on Web MD and self diagnosing, no doubt. But in the end, the doctors loved it too, because it is really efficient, is well documented. But I'm more interested in empowering people in their teenage years and realize, and by the way, the opportunities out there, and you can do it remotely. And if you start with that, then you're free to do it anywhere. Yeah, so you can stay where you are, or you can move out, this is your choice, but you're not anymore, pending on the local education model, etc, etc. We had a revolution in the last 15 years, when it comes to university education. Coming out of places like Stanford University, there was a guy called Sebastian tune actually, of German descent, who left and started a company called Udacity. And so this provided online education around the world in English. And they had amazing pickup rates logically from people across the world who wanted to excellent education. And it was not any more depending on the fact of how do you get into Stanford? You know, how are you able how you even able to get a visa or for the student expenses of Stanford? No, you could take like the Stanford experience anywhere. Very interesting. I'm a big fan of Fiverr. And use it. You ever use this, I had a file a recording of something that I needed to hear. And it had a lot of background noise and very echoey. And I'd gotten the file after dinner, and I really wanted to use it in the morning. And I jumped on Fiverr and I looked up audio editing or cleaning or something like that, and found a fellow in Russia sent him the file I wake up in the morning, it's totally usable. Yep. $15. I'm sure he's happy because it probably took him 10 minutes, right? It doesn't matter. But but it works for them. This is the same model, which we always had with the guys from Kubo arriving in Miami. Yeah, so this this model has always worked since the early days for civilization offers its early days of mankind, if you and if you are paid in Miami, whatever it is 10 or $15 per hour. And this is triple of what you make in Cuba. So people in Miami are happier the people in Cuba have your family whom you can send some of the money are happy, and it works. And it boosts Cuba and it boosts Miami. So this has happened all over the world, we are now able to do it remotely, which is so much more powerful. And which sets people free. Very nice. Now, round wheelers, I see you using that term on your social posts, often, if not always, you explained it to me the other day, do you mind for our listener, because I think it's very interesting. You know, most people you'll meet, tell them tell you, they're busy, and they don't have time. And I don't believe that we all if we, if we are lucky, we have the privilege to wake up tomorrow morning. And if we consider that as a privilege, then we wake up with the right energy and with a positive outlook on celebrating another day. So that's my view about time. So then we are blessed hopefully to have another 24 hours to live. So round wheels and simple if you look back at Flintstones, and the fact of pushing our carts, there were people who had square wheels at the beginning. And so somebody came up with a round wheel. And I found the terminology around Wheeler is so simple, and probably kind of politically correct anywhere on the planet. So it works cross cultural. Yeah. And it works kind of in any society. And it's an example of which has nothing to do with it. This is outside of any issue when it comes to gender, race works anytime, anywhere else. So the terminology around Wheeler is meant for people who make the time to listen and who are open for innovation.

Well put. Now, if I recall, I'll be jumping all over the place your partner In your mobile phone company in Germany, ended up with T Mobile. Is that right? Oh, not only that. So renice dream always was when I met him to become a board member of a German DAX 100. company. And yes, I successfully obstructed him to ever finish his studies at university. And I had a few arguments with him about it. But I enabled him in one way or the other, to pursue his dream and have the credibility in a new exponentially growing industry to first join t mobile and he became the CEO and chairman of Berkshire Telecom. So he was in charge of 200 something 1000 people for a while. And that's it right now. He says things are cool. I had to Pincus was the largest, one of the big private equity firms. So that's what he's doing right now. But he always follows the corporate worlds perspective. He's now in many supervisory boards, including algos. So this European competitor on Boeing. And he approaches that and he's credited with a very customer centric operating system. And guess where he got that from? So this was part of the way how we operate it. We always thought about how do we make sure people love what we do come back. So as an example, the first generations of Motorola phones, the idea of programming, the first or your most important phone numbers was a nightmare. It was, it was it was a nightmare, literally nightmare. So the most people came with a list printed out president secretary or photocopied by the secretary. And they came and say, and we offered that for free as a service, which we would always do. So I, our technicians Be humble and kind and say, Yes, I am delighted to put all the numbers into your phone. And at the time, whenever you get a software update, you not only have to pay for the software update, no, but all the other numbers were deleted. So people were kind of in shock. So what we did logically was sit there and program all this, whatever up to 100 numbers was the original generation of mobile phones at the time I put it, this is wrong. And so this small details, people appreciate it, they knew they can always come back, even if they made a mistake and deleted all the numbers, they could always come back and we would do it again. We had good coffee. And they appreciate the combination of people who enjoy helping them and offering them a good coffee and sap program, therefore, like their mobile phones, and something as simple as setting all the numbers was crucial for many, many people to operate it small now, as you know, yes, yes. And this is what he carries forward into the big corporate world. Now, he did that he I think broke records where dodgy telecom became customer. I think one a few Customer Care awards at the time when he was there. So he was credited with turning dodgy telecom around and actually becoming a former state owned company was a really, really good customer care experience. So their call center waiting, the waiting line for incoming phone calls dropped by dramatic numbers. I forgot the numbers, but they want literally awards for being so customer centric. And I'm sure he does the same thing now. So wherever he goes, that's a mindset which you don't lose. So you always come up with innovative solutions. And yeah, I think I'm sure that part of his training or having been part of the exposure at the time, was always to come up with something and look at things slightly differently. And this is just for me, it's a natural process. So I cannot do the opposite. And so this is something which allows me to look at neighborhoods, look at Europe, look at the Balkan area, where I was for some family reasons. And then I realized, Wow, what's possible, there's some countries who lose all their young people, and they have significant problem was attracting people. And I said, you know what you do, you need remote workers. And now we can see now that 70% of people do not want again, to go back full time to an office. And even a higher number would love to work from another country. And Europe is now putting the legislation into place. Whereas this works and for employed people, their social insurances, and their unemployment insurance and health insurance, everything is taken care of. But they can work maybe six months from Germany six months from the Mediterranean, so they can combine those things is this is the future.

Well, and I'm going to drag you back to T Mobile for a second, because I'm in the United States. But what's interesting on my downloads on the audio podcast, Andres is that only about 75 80% are in us in and I don't know why or you know how the word got out. But number two and three switching places is Germany and France. And then on down so not everyone's going to know who T Mobile is. But for the United States listener. That company has a particular color that everybody knows as its trademark and remember you telling me the significance of that you mind share how you know, it was?

Yes, sure. It's, we always said a little bit of a different approach. So I went to a girl school, maybe that's part of the explanation. So I was sent to a girl school. So we were eight boys and around 1000 girls. So I was very early exposed to a collaborative attitude, and a lot of feminine features. And I really enjoyed it. And this hasn't changed under today. So I still believe collaboration is the next normal. And I never understood why you would compete with people. I would rather collaborate, it didn't go well with my school director, because he didn't understand why I would collaborate during exams. But I always thought it's part of teamwork. So to make a long story short, we came up with smiling phones with pink, we use pink for stuff because I believe pink is a great color to reflect energy. And so I found a very powerful and dodgy telecom yesterday turned it into magenta. And I was once assigned to help them with international projects. And this included actually going through the entire branding portfolio, and figuring out that it's a time that over closest 30 brands internally, highly confusing. And so if you look at it from today's perspective, they have one pink, magenta, or magenta, they call it, I call it pink T and it works really, really well as a pie brand recognition. And, yeah, I remember that people made jokes about us running around with pink shirts or things like this. I always call this or associated that with sexual preferences. I always found those perspectives very limiting. But you can see now that at Dodger Telecom, telecom or T Mobile, whatever you call it, they are the ones who are far ahead when it comes to supporting rainbow empowers people. So what we call LGBTQ are what we call a few 100 years ago, when it was totally normal for human beings to recognize multiple genders. So the whole idea of saying you have to be a boy, and you have to Don't cry and play with cars and with spaceships. And you have to be a girl. And you have to do this. This is such an expired scenario, which limits people to such a high degree. But again, if you look back into history, this is only a few 100 years old. And it's mainly something which was pushed by the Catholic Church, it's served as their agenda. Yeah, but you're talking about a model, where priests are married to Jesus God and the Holy Ghost. And if you look into the 16th, chapel, all of them look male. So it's, it's, I'm happy that some parts of the church are now embracing the rainbow. I believe that every human being should embrace the rainbow, and the gender issues are just misplaced. But as those discussions often with women who claim that they are discriminated, and that they don't have equal opportunities, and then I say, yes, that is probably true. If you look at it that way, I can only remind them that 98% Jeff 98%, of the educators of all human beings, are women in the most formative years. 98%. So I told them, my hope is that the same women who complain about this are the ones who are actually bringing our people and telling them, this is how a man behaves. This is how a woman behaves, if we stop doing that by just making no reference to gender, so not discriminating for somebody, because he has balls between his legs or otherwise, but we just ignore that factor, and just empower them as human beings, then everything is normal. So I do this is my children, I, I don't says it's irrelevant, I don't care if it's a boy or a girl, and they should do what they believe in. And they should see what they are called for, and pursue that with the utmost level of passion they have or they can have and bring to actually their own paths of life. So what I'm trying to say is people are complaining about things. As an example, they love to complain about men like you and me. And then at the same time, 98% of the educators are actually all women. So just change the way how you bring them up, then within a few years, you will see totally different results. But I would like like boys are not supposed to cry. I was brought up by the way. You're not supposed to hug each other. You're not supposed to say hey, Jeff, I love you. Yeah, because why is he saying that? So, but I can say, Jeff, I love you because I actually love you. But you know what? The fact that we only have such a limited definition of love. When if you look into other cultures, they have something 50 definitions of love, right? Yeah, I'm sure you say to Jackson, I love you. Yeah. And so there is another definition which has nothing to do with any romantic encounters and we should be able to live that in an open positive way. So gender is discriminatory, we shouldn't Malta is really forward thinking more Malta is the only country in the world where you can register your children as gender acts in the birth certificate, so they can decide if they ever want to, to if they want to be identified by gender or not. Can you imagine so Malta put that into legislation A few years ago, so you can actually live a life without being whatever what people normally love to do was kind of pink or blue. Yeah, without being classified and limited by that. So yes, I like to create companies with logos which are pink I like to create companies with low robots are orange, because I believe energy and color like a sunrise and a sunset they look to me fucking thing are fucking orange. And so this is above all genders. This is the sun and the sun is the one which gives us life and light on this planet. So how can that be used in a discriminatory manner? But you know what? I heard it so many times. That's a cold music Pink Guy, or they made fun about it. And that's okay.

Yes, part of maybe remembering you. Yeah, I know. I've many articles written about the Pink Guy or whatever. And that's all okay. So that's, that's okay with me. I want to make sure that our children can grow up without those limiting gender boxes. But I also remember that when you were sharing with me about the color pink, and I think this isn't your house, we're looking at a picture on your wall or you know, a business poster. You said that also babies born pink. Get people in love skin tone? Pink it right? Yes. Yes. So if it goes through a process, yes. Even though I believe we are all faded versions of black. So if you look into the skin color perspective, so I think but but I get your point? Yes, no, I think this is exactly the story. This was a pin context that is important for people to realize, as much as it is to realize that we are all faded versions of black, when it comes to looking into what I understand. current knowledge is based on the available scientific information that we all call Africa home. And so the idea of being anything but faded versions of black is just doesn't make sense. That's right now jumping around, and eventually we'll have to talk about cars here, because we know that you love cars, and you got them parked all over the place. But are you still in the business of business incubation? Not really. So I mentor people who actually do that. But I personally, I like to limit my, my available 24 hours on the days, I still wake up to, to focus on my children, and to make sure that I'm in good shape myself. And last but not least, to mentor a few people in projects, which I enjoy. And that is following and applying the same logic, the same learning curve, which I have from that period of my life. But I'm not interested in running operational team have any larger size in the current face, that doesn't feel right. It's not needed. And it works remotely really well with people in different parts of the world in different time zones, like what we do right now. So running a facility and running then then larger teams is not what I consider as stimulating in this phase of my life. Well, I'm glad you're following what you find stimulating. Yes. At the moment when I'm finding my health and happiness. Yeah. What I'm finding stimulating is saving for college for another one. Yeah, but it's not even needed, because College has an expired scenario. So you will find out that college is something which is absolutely not needed, and that the education available is not only free, yeah, but it's actually significantly more empowering than college ever worse, I understand that you have this expired college model, which still is attracting a large percentage of the American population. But at the same time, you have companies like Google and others who offer alternative training modules, which are I think, by far more instrumental to set the generation of our children free to pursue and do what they really want to do with skills which are actually relevant. Right. Now, of course, I didn't go to college. But I think if somebody ends up wanting to be a doctor, for example, kind of have to go through the expired. I get that but by But no, not really. Because we you know what we did so far. If you look at doctors, we are not really training people how to stay healthy and not have to go to a doctor, right how doctors operate. They give you a prescription, when you have a problem. They don't really train you and say By the way, you have to train your nutrition, you should focus on this, you should focus on that. So there are countries in the world where you can study medicine in a more holistic manner. And if you really want to do that, I would rather send them outside of the US Have them trained in different places around the world where they can pick up the knowledge, which is relevant to keep people healthy. If we, if we coach people to stay healthy and learn all about the healing capacity of the human being, then yes, the current pharmaceutical industry might have a real problem. Yeah, because the most the majority of the products would have no customers anymore. But that is ultimately the way how to address the issue of health management. Oh, agree Western medicine is fix it. And everything else is how to avoid it. I mean, the the measurement, I think in Asia, of a successful doctor is how often his families don't get sick.

And is this but you know what? This is the same thing over over driving instructor. Yeah, I think I'm sure you don't have driving instructors who have endorsement deal was insurances always repair shops? I hope not. So. So if you look at the simple thing, they're driving a car, what we hope for is that they don't crash. Yeah, we don't right. Let them crash as often as they can. So you know, we get a commission from the repair shop. Yeah. And so is this as simple as it is. That's a good point. Now, you've lived a few interesting places, I think, what in my life? Yeah, no, I was, I was in Germany, and I grew up there. And then there was an Asia for a wild and I enjoyed living in the Mediterranean. Then I went back to the Balkan area for a while I was in New York for a while in between I was in Miami for a while I so I was always keen to explore parts of the world. And Sir, I always liked the idea of spending their six months, three months, so or any kind of extended periods. I fell in love with effective learning about places, why are they operating the way how they operate? And what can I learn from the way how they operate? So somehow, I always found it very interesting to look at into their modus operandi and see what is where is the potential to learn something and actually move it forward? I think I remember you in an art project or helping with an art collection in India? Yeah, because there was as an example, if you look at the American contemporary art galleries, many of them would are considered for the longest period that contemporary art from India didn't matter. And in the fifth, no, 15 years ago, probably I was by coincidence. I met somebody who was running a contemporary art gallery in India. And I found it really interesting. And I started to learn more about art history from India. And I realized this from a cultural perspective, it is a given that families with multiple kids would have some of them who were educated in art. And so contemporary art was very present in India, but it was just not accepted by the auction houses. As an example, in New York, I had some discussion with with some of the CEOs of contemporary art auction houses in New York, and they at that time, and we are going back now 2004, considered Indian contemporary art as irrelevant. And so then I had the opportunity to help the guy Cynosure enjoyed that and helps them to to set up a place in Berlin, next to the largest Contemporary Art Museum at a time. So, yes, because this is something I find I always loved people from different parts of the world, and supporting some of the Indian contemporary artists in this past was something which I really enjoyed. And I had at that time, as a time, for instance, a child, right. Very interesting. I mean, I remember Srilanka Yep. And correct me if I'm wrong, and it would maybe wasn't the same. But I relate what you did in upstate New York with the Wi Fi in the city center. Did you do something similar with bosnia?

No, no, not yet. What we're doing right now is that we have some projects, which are out of Croatia, and which are all based on empowering people to use remotes, or to learn how to actually work remotely. And this is something which I love to see happening across the Balkan area, because there's a strong commitment, which I totally believe in to integrate entire Balkan area into Europe. And there are countries who had some some dynamics with neighboring countries in the last 30 years, they even went to work. And so the way to help that is not by getting them all to Germany. And so a large number of people from that neighborhood move to Germany. But this doesn't help because all the educated, dynamic young people leave the country and so this is not allowing any prosperity to unfold. in those neighborhoods, which are beautiful, beautiful neighborhoods are blessed with nature. They are blessed this climate they are blessed with a beautiful heritage and which is rich And buildings and culture and in a lot of ways, a lot of ways how those neighborhoods operate, what they need is prosperity. And what I, what I enjoyed co creating in Malta, where the remote business industry, Malta did not have a remote business industry when I arrived. And so I was part of triggering that. And this is something which is probably close to 20% of the Maltese GDP by now, if you include all the side effects, because logically, people working in those remote industries, pay a rent, spend money, etc, etc. Yes, but this is something which took Malta, which made Malta one of the fastest growing European economies throughout the last probably 10 years. And one was the highest longevity of people living a healthy life. And one of things the number one European LGBT IQ country. So it has a few number one features where Mota stands out, and has a few word doesn't so but it's in this case, it's an attractive place, which found its niche. And that is, especially around the remote business industry, for the Balkan area, remote driver's licenses, which empower teenagers, or people in that age bracket to do to explore options to work remotely, and make actually money. So become financially independent. This will be this is from my perspective, the number one way to empower is about income and to boost prosperity in the bygone era. Very interesting. And, folks, if you haven't studied I mean, Andres is talking about recent history in Malta. But looking at Maltese history all the way back is unbelievably interesting. It's 12,000 years before Christ, if you look back, and it has been on a crossroads of humanity for a long time, but it's the kind of a center of the Mediterranean. And yeah, everybody who had something to do with trade in the Mediterranean wanted to position in Malta. And so this creates an interesting dynamics. And I would call it one of the most unique DNA on the planet, because they had a significant DNA exchange over the last year, had 12,000 plus years, it really is worth looking into. And it's a beautiful place. And it's just south of Sicily, and it's off the northern African coast. And even now, the largest yachts in the world go there because of the water depth for service. And you know what, a lot of Americans love it for film productions, because it allows you to have very unique film sets. And it has this kind of 300 days of sunshine and North African climate. It's south of Tunis. So the climate is very unique, based on the fact that the country is very small. So it's a very tiny place, which is blessed, and in many, many ways. And if I recall the food terrific. You know, it depends on how you look at it, if you want to have I think

through if you want to have premium restaurant experiences, logically, the plates cannot compete. Yeah, so you if you want to have expensive restaurants, you get many more of those in Miami, in New York and Los Angeles or in Paris, on London. But if you want to have great food for in a basic environment served by passionate people, then it's great. Yeah. So if you want to offenses and Malta is not fancy, so Malta, but you know, put it this way, Malta has a situation that people arrive with super yachts, which then have maybe one or two helicopters. And people have local people who actually lived there for two generations have a barbecue 30 meters away from the super yachts, and everybody is okay with it. So there's no security risk. Yeah. So there's people just leave you alone. Yeah, if you look at Steven Spielberg, if you look at multiple american people who have been here, what they love about Malta as they can walk everywhere, and people leave them alone, as Brad Pitt, who was here many times are several other people producing movies, and they know they can walk around and people leave them alone. So that is a nice feature. So if you come with a superiority helicopter, or if you come with a discount airline, I should count on a boat. You can enjoy being yourself. And people take note of you for sure. But otherwise they don't invade what you do. And they have very happy doing their local barbecue 50 meters away from your boat and your helicopters and all of this heavily coexists and next to one of the oldest fortifications in the Mediterranean. So it's it's that charm, which I believe is unique. It is now in dress I'm sorry, we got cars in the title of the show. Obviously this has not been a car centric episode and it never is. But we've certainly met through the car business. Do you still love cars because we met through you getting a couple of Rolls Royces and I think, talk to you about a couple Land Rovers, etc. For some of your places. Oh, if I recall Porsche,

in my mind, what I loved about that is that I had a face where I really researched the history of mobility, and loved what I learned about the whole Rolls Royce perspective, and how are they even even going into how they advertise their cars in the 1920s and 1930s. And so I found it utterly fascinating. And this is why I then got into it and said, Okay, let me experience that. And I found through you some of what I then consider, as, so I like this example of finding pieces, which are maybe 2030 years old, was in impeccable condition so that you could carry them forward, when I'm not really interested in ownership, I consider that as a custodian assignment. So because you hold them for a certain time, and hopefully, you'll leave them in a better shape than you grab them to make sure they stay on. Now, because we will not have that kind of individual car anymore in the future. So I consider I'm interested in cars, or in mobility solutions, which have a classic value, which are considered as a piece of art. So and hence build cornice from that period, surely qualifies for that. And so that is what I enjoy. I don't like plastic cars or cars full of computers, because they don't last. Yeah, who on earth would consider putting a laptop on a bicycle? Yeah, so because it wouldn't survive for a long time. So now we have cars which are full of laptops. And yes, they have a bicycle plus some plastic around it. But it is it is guaranteed that those things don't work. And we're not interested to make them simple to be repaired, they only can be replaced. And this is just not sustainable. So what I like about this generation of cars, which I consider as art on wheels, is that people with a basic toolbox will always find ways to fix them as an example, I have a right now still a Rolls Royce Phantom five, which I found that this time, and if there is something not working, I can get the parts and the assembly in the Netherlands who actually has the parts or who is rebuilding those parts. And then I always find local technicians who love to the actually consider that as a kind of a positive experience, to then put all the things together for them is like a puzzle. Yeah, but there is no laptop, there is no thing which can, which goes totally havoc. It's it's it ends, they're all pieces, which will stay around for another few 100 years. So this is where the custodianship comes in, I enjoy, I could just enjoy looking at them and rather go and walk. Now if I drive them a time, that's okay. But otherwise effective just knowing they exist, they're there, I consider them as an asset which is worthwhile to be kept for the future generations to enjoy. So as an example, I have a G class, and I bought this G class is only until 2000. There's the old dashboard. Yeah, there is no real display. And I got them from Japan was very low mileage and in pretty impeccable condition. And so this is the cars which can still be fixed was kind of a basic screwdriver and maybe a nail file. Yeah. So and that is what I enjoy. And these are cars which will be around for for our great grandchildren. And somebody will always continue that custodianship. So this is what I'm interested in. I'm not interested in what I call plastic cars full of laptops, which headache, or which normally people after 10 years, strip all the laptops out and sell them to somewhere Mongolia. So that's not interesting. This is I think, the way how the current industry works right now, in many, many ways, is just producing things which have what I call the high crap bounce index factor. So they produce cars, which are designed to fill the crap bomb. Well put, and I know the way that you like to set a car up, I know the way you like to take care of one. So as a custodian, I think anyone ending up with one when you're finished with it, is in good shape. Yeah, and this is this no doubt about when we move when we move things forward. And then other people can realize that there were values which are a nice to be celebrated. And it's a cost which will not end up on the crap mountain. So I'm not interested, I'm interested to reduce the correct mountain as much as possible. Because this doesn't it's not part of it is not sustainable, and it's not circular. So it doesn't help us and exporting rubbish as we have been doing it for many years from one country to the other, just creates a problem at another part of the same planet, as this horn says as we see right now with the last pandemic. So we are all one at the end of the day.

And Dre is switching gears on you and I didn't give you any warning, we didn't exchange any pre information or questions about today's conversation. Can you think of three people, whether they're people that you know, or people that are famous, that have been inspirational to you? I think you are because you have a customer, Cass and customer care for cross, which was higher than anything I was familiar with before I met you. So that's an at the end of the day, you picking costs is one feature, but you could have done it with anything. So and I always loved how you did in an early stage when I met you, you You were always creating mobility solutions. And biologics are very much like what Elon Musk is doing with Tesla now. So you create a mobility solution for people, yes, you met them probably because you sold them a Bentley or Rolls Royce. But at the end of the day, you took care of all the other issues. So related to mobility solutions for the entire family. This is what I recall from our multiple dialogues over the last 15 plus years. So that is what I find highly inspiring. What I learned from my father was very much the front from Assisi model, where somebody is really passionate about his belief systems, and actually lives them in a way or is at times in conflict with things like the Catholic Church, but it's nevertheless permitted to live them to a high degree, which I find utterly fascinating, and is a way to move the planet forward. I think probably, who else would I pick? Yeah, and my mother, so my mother coming from a farm out of nowhere and being sent into a into a monastery. So she became became a nun. And so with very limited access to formal education, resigned from that when she followed her intuition and realize that what is lift there versus what they claim to be, doesn't correspond with her integrity level. So she resigned from the nunnery and her entire family and relatives not talking with her for a long, long period. And then actually resetting her life. And then actually spending many, many years with my father who I think from a content stream, they're not really, they weren't aligned, so there was no transmission. But he was committed to support his ample children. So his first wife diets, following up as a follow up of a surgery, so he had multiple kids, my youngest brother was just a year old at the time. And so she moved in there and held to the kids, they married a few years later, and then I was born. So I find that inspiring that you find a way within your limitations of being brought up in a very Roman Catholic manner, to deal with my father. And then to deal with me, which I'm sure was challenging for her. Yeah, so I think she before she died, I took care of her for the last three years because she became demand. So it was a interesting bonding experience during that time. And she still complained that I never had a real job because she never saw me kind of in a real job thing. And she couldn't help herself from complaining about that the last days before she died. So she always said I should do what my brothers did become a lawyer or a doctor. So but you know what, I still love her. And that's all cool. But to have within that mindset, the will to go through it, I think is something which I find highly inspiring. Well, I asked that question once in a while, and I've never made it to that list. So I appreciate it. Really, you are you? I don't know. Don't forget, you have a way of dealing with clients, which is exceptional. But this is why you have them now talking with you about things which are totally different. I experienced it from your office and the way how I dealt with it. And then I think you had this demit was they had the misunderstanding when they let go of you at the time. And then there was this whole kind of a dispute to a while and then you help moderating it, even though you weren't already out because we wanted to make sure that the customer who you treasured as a human being, not as a customer of that company is dealt with. And so this is how you operate. And this is from his 360 customer centric perspective. That's an 11 out of 10. Gosh, that that was a while back wasn't a man. Oh, man. Yeah, but I'm sure you do this in general, because it's just the way how you are. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, I just, I worry that they're relying on what I represented, and me and whether I'm with the company or not. Exactly. I think or I know that well. I mean, let's face it, a lot of people, most people, especially that level, deal with their person, not the business, they almost don't know what the there is no business. There's only the person they're dealing with.

But this is something which I experienced was CEOs of Deutsche Bank. This is what I experienced with people at UBS was people at the border Find it everywhere. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter which contemporary work assignments they have. It does not. It does not matter. And this is something which we sometimes forget, or which we don't. We're not part of any, any business school and yes, I lectured a different business schools I was invited to, to give workshop there, etc, etc. And always tried to bring those things across that it's a temporary assignment of a business card, which has nothing to do with you. And people do business with you because they feel good about it about feeling good about trusting you. Yeah, the fact that you could get fired overnight is, is a fact. But you still to operate in a way where you put your name on the line. And so yeah, I experienced that. And we, this is certainly enough, missing and most executive education programs have any or the whatever business school to experience. And that includes Columbia, Stanford, in the US, so any of them in Europe or in Asia. And so yeah, having been young in an industry, which has changed the world, made me get more invitations from those places. And I always find it fascinating to have somebody will have to call it age 15 going there and, and Sarah giving them input, which they considered as valuable. Yes. And you know, of course, there's people with business degrees or various degrees that have done very well in their life. And I don't want to knock because I have many, many friends and clients that have done well with formal education. But what I'm finding with these recorded interviews on this podcast, is an inordinate number that did not get formal education that did very well in their life. I had the Steve Hughes who's episode is live now. He's the owner of St. Alamos steakhouse, which is really a mecca for race fans and race teams in Indianapolis. But he's taking restaurant chains public and how many's solid guy, but he, you know, I was letting him know what a bad student I was. And he says, Jeff, the A students become doctors, the B students become lawyers, and the C students hire them, it is probably a little bit prejudice. But it's pretty much what I experienced. The fact of I love education, I love learning. And so I do it on a daily basis. And I allocate time every day to learn about things, which I have not been familiar with. So my curiosity to keep glowing and growing, as I call it, is huge. And this is something which keeps me awake, and it keeps me healthy. And so doing that every day is something which allows me to continue to be of value for anybody around me, and hopefully for the rest of the world. And this is sometimes which people who get formal degrees, forget. So I rather call myself an NP, which means nature powered. And because I believe in nature, so there's no problem, which nature wouldn't have a solution for. We might have just not looked at it yet. Right. And I agree that that could be a prejudice comment that Steve make. But what I took out of it was he was wanting to make sure that I kept my self image intact, because I never went to school. That you know, he was just coming from experience I had that I had that experience myself. So I people who are when I left school at 15, who continued to did their A Levels did their masters and already Yes, I employed them later. And that's all okay. It is their past and they're calling. I'm just saying that education is a lifetime assignment. Grant. Agree, sadly enough, some people who do their masters, PhD and others, forget about it. There is a study, which is actually a US based study, which has tested kiddos pre kindergarten, and they have a 98% of them have a genius level when it comes to problem solving, and creativity. This 98% goes down to 10% when they're finished with a PhD. Well, and then so if you listen for too long to people who tell you what's right and wrong, you give up. Yeah. And so luckily, I never gave up. And when they told me I should do things differently. I left school. Well, I mean, there's right in along those lines. Kids are laughing so many times per day, at that age. And by the time they're an adult, the laughter goes down quite a bit. It

but is this something which is currently reset, I believe what we experienced last year, as is as a major, major, major change for expiring the Industrial Revolution design school model right now, where we have people who tell kids what is right and wrong. And we have people who tell kids that they're supposed to get excited at 830 in the morning about a certain subject, which probably has nothing to do with the way how they live their day. So the 2021 solutions which we have allow us to actually pick up kids on the day At basis at the bus station where they are, and if they are today excited to learn everything about spaceships and we find a model based on AI and based on human support, which actually allows them to learn everything which is relevant becomes to math, language history around the subject of spaceships. Now there's a guy called professors who got on the track, he explained that he created the S o L. He models his self organized learning so well, without teachers, or only teachers who ask questions, kids learn faster, or as fast as in a prestigious premium private schools. So that is something to think about, that people who we educate so far in the current Industrial Age model, as teachers are not needed for kids to learn as fast or even faster, if we allow the kids to argue with each other and have access to information. Because Don't forget, the industrial age in schooling model is all based on just in case, not just in time. So we fill you up with information, which you might use, just in case, the sad thing is that less than 1% of information is actually relevant. And so what do we saw last year was a pandemic, as we learned, as an example, how do we have facemask? And we learned it just in time. So as long as I know where to find the answer, then having all the skills to operate just in time is perfect. For the most cases, yeah, so brain surgery might be a little bit different. But right, so for the majority of the things, as long as you have information accessible, what do we have these days through technology? Yeah, it's our point to develop skills, which are problem solving skills, which are, which are leadership skills, which communication skills, all the things where machines cannot be faster and better than we are. So we created now tools, which are so much better in remembering stuff than we are with our kind of limited brain capacity. But for us, we have an intuition, which robots and machines do not really have to that degree. And we have a way to emotionally pick up vibes between people, which machines do not have. So to build, everything needed to move that past is, I think, the future and end the current situation of any kind of sophisticated education. Well put in very interesting, you know, there's, of course, formal education, and then I'm thinking tribal knowledge in self education. And I was dwelling on the comment that you made about, I leave the company, I'm concerned about my customer experience, and I forgot exactly how you put it. But it was something like because I put my name on the line, or I made my promise or something like that. And this is really something I got from my father, my dad was like, something comes out of your mouth. It's real, don't let him come out of it. It's, it's okay, it's a question of integrity. So this is ultimately is a call, if you set it is this Jeff Sterns, who set it, right. And you know that a man is only as good as his word or a person without gender identification. But a person is only as good as their word, I think is a very, very strong, old saying, really, if we forgot about it, and we don't teach it. So integrity is not what concerns a lot of people. This is why they rather compete with each other instead of collaborating. So this is expiring right now. And people realize that collaboration is cool. And you don't have to compete your other chair. And we are in a people now realize you cannot keep growing economies because the planet Earth stays the same size. I have not seen Mother Earth going getting any bigger. Now we just they're depleted of many resources and create havoc all over the place. So we should create a life where life is good for everybody. And do it in a approach which is circular and which is sustainable.

Yes. And that integrity piece. It's I mean, of course, it's important for somebody else to be able to rely on you and to have courtesy that they're adjusting their day or their schedule or their life based on what you represented. But really integrity is about yourself. Because yes, as soon as as soon as you stop keeping your word, your subconscious identifies you as I'm not reliable, and little by little you get more and more unreliable without if there's no penalty without penalty and on and on. Yep. And then you're not reliable to yourself. I think it's true but why why does Tesla doesn't Why does test them not need an advertising department? Yeah, I never liked the word marketing. So if you have something which is good people come there you go. So I didn't come to you across the world across different time zones because of a leaflet which you put into my letterbox, which I don't really want. So, now because you just put something out there. And the facts were actually powerful as a stent. And the experience of interacting was actually based on integrity. And that works. So whenever you have to market something, there's something I believe fundamentally wrong. In nature, you don't have to market something it has, it radiates itself. If it radiates itself, it's good. So if you're, if you market things, which things need actually marketing to become better, it triggers a whole bunch of question marks intuitively was me. Interesting. And well put final question, anything that you'd want us to know about you? My phone number is simple. 4917717122221. Yeah, my number, if anybody has enjoys to collaborate to do something interesting on this planet, and probably around for another, I'd say 80 years, probably. So we'll find out. God willing, I'm here for some time, I have a I have seen some beautiful places, and I'm blessed to keep meeting interesting people. And as long as the hive mind stretching dialogues, I'm always available to entertain. Now, that's all very like I like to I like to have people who actually where I learned something from spending time with them. Very, I find I find more and more of those thanks to the availability of social media. So people like minded people across time zones across continents are collaborating right now more than ever before. Very gently don't have to, you don't, you don't have to hang out with the buddies who went to school with us who might not have seen the light yet, which is okay. Which is okay. It is their life, but you don't depend on that. So your social circle is the planet. And that's okay for me to stick to so I don't have to follow Elon Musk to Mars or somewhere else. But so but whoever is on this planet, and something which actually feels right and makes sense. I'm always happy to to spend some of my time on. For those of you that don't know you, for you to offer up your contact information, which I'll put in the show notes really is generous. And I know that you don't think you're better than anyone else. I'll just say from a someone that's not you that a conversation with Andreas about whatever you're thinking about, you know, whether you get an answer or don't get an answer, you'll definitely end up thinking about a number of things that you weren't thinking about when you started the conversation. I always enjoy I know that you know, the way you were raised not hugging I'll can't wait to see you again physically so I can give you a big hug. And you know, I love you to death brother and I'm so grateful through this show, that it forces me to pick up the phone or message someone and get back in touch with someone I mean, my gosh, we started almost 20 years ago and I'm grateful for the relationship I mean, you're a contact that I'll I'll never forget even not just for the Sterns at gmail email, but you're on my shoulder often. I mean, I think of you a lot about little things. I call them mind grenades, little things that you said that later, they go off and you know, that's something that I get from my father all the time, but you're somebody that I mean, absolutely been a big person in my life. I got some from your father. Well, I had the pleasure of spending time with him based on your introduction. This has been Jeff Sterns connected through cars.